Amen, CZ. I'd rather give Mooch more money up front than sign him for 6 years at a "bargain". If he sucks or the system changes, the Rockets foot the bill for the duration. If he becomes a star, he'd be upset over the contract and ask for a raise (see Kemp, Shawn). Plus there's no monetary incentive for a player to get better if he's signed for what might be the duration of his career. ------------------ I am Jack's utter lack of surprise. www.clutchtown.com
Chen, I can understand your points. Surely. But I can't let comparisons to the past two championships go. Let's look at all good teams. 1. Would you have signed Brian Grant to 6 yrs as Rasheed's back-up. Back-ups are easy to find. 2. Would you sign Rodney Rogers to 6 yrs as Marion's backup. 3. Would you sign Cuttino to 6 yrs as Shandon's backup. 4. Would you sign Shandon to 6 yrs as Shareef's backup 5. Would you sign Ruben Patterson to 6 yrs as Vin Baker's back-up. 6. Would you sign Turkoglu to 6 yrs as Stojanovich's back-up. 7. Would you sign Marshall to 6yrs as Russell's backup Yes, there is a difference when they are important pieces. They have important roles. Our backup PG is the most important backup role in my opinion. I consider Moochie the perfect backup to the most important backup role. I'd give him 6 yrs. as for tod the bod man tod, you just don't get it. Moochie is running a pick n roll from the top of the key. The defense always leaves him. He could shoot the shot around the pick everytime, but he doesn't want to. He wants the defense to commit, so he can pass it to the forward or penetrate for better passing angles. Do you really not think there is a reason for him dribbling? How can you ever call that man a "ball hog"? Yeah, moochie wants to wow us with his dribbling for 20 seconds and shoot a last second shot off the pnr everytime. [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited January 30, 2001).]
Sam, no incentive??? uhh, it is called a title! Mobley signed for 6 yrs under market and I don't see him quitting in practice.
The only way we could improve the backup pg position would be to find someone with Mooch's skills and basketball sense that was 4 inches taller. Fat chance of that happening. Moochie does not dribble mindlessly. He is moving in and out with the ball to get his defender off balance and create space. The only person that I think he compares to is Sam Cassell. Payton does this very well also and has the extra inches, but how many Payton's are there? If Steve could pick up some of Mooch's tricks, he would be incredible. The Rockets should lock up Moochie long term if possible. ------------------
Moochie is a starter quality PG. Not all-star material, but a lot of teams would love to get their dirty pawns on him I say lock him for the long run with the early bird and we won't have to worry about the PG spot for a loooooOOOOOoooong while. He is better or as good as a lot of starting pg's out there: Ward, Johnson, McInnis, Knight, Blaylock, and a lot of others. It's ridiculous to compare him to Maloney. Anyone who says this probably hasn't seen one of them play. Maloney was a streaky shooter who sometimes shot a fair share of threes. He was counted on nothing more than bring the ball up court and failed at even that. I still think he got that contract because he was having a thing with rudy's daughter Moochie is a pass first guard and a good one at that. I second the thoughts that he is a better pure pg than francis. I have even entertained the idea of Moochie and Francis side by side with Francis at SG, but we need our best players on the floor. Even though, make no mistake, that would be a respectable backcourt. ------------------ "Dream another dream, this dream is over... Dream another dream, this dream is over... Dream another dream..." - from the Van Halen song, "The Dream is Over" (Thank you, Freak). Fitting, isn´t it?
heypartner, I like Moochie's game. I really do. But he's not Cuttino. Cuttino may do a lot of dumb things, and he gets called out by myself and other posters when he does so. But Cuttino has the biggest set of cojones this side of the Mississippi. There was no doubt in my mind that he will continue to work to improve his game and reach the title. So there was no risk taken in inking him long-term. But Moochie's barely been a Rocket for a year. Let him prove himself a little more before he's given the big check. What is the rush? ------------------ I am Jack's utter lack of surprise. www.clutchtown.com
Maloney couldn't run the offense we have now, but neither could Moochie run the offense we had then. Maloney's job was to get the ball in the post and hit the 3s when they were available. He was good at that. Moochie isn't the 3-point shooter Maloney was. The point is Maloney and the Rockets were a victim of circumstance in the long-contract/waiver thing. We had an offense predicated on the post where Maloney thrived and when we got Francis and the new era came upon us, he was suddenly out in the cold. If ever we need our PG to dump it in and wait for a 3, we'll have to get rid of Moochie. All that considered, I still think we should go ahead and sign him below-market long-term if that is possible. ------------------ RealGM Rockets Draft Obligations Summary Gafford Art Artisan
Moochie is really a backup for three players: Stevie, Shandon, and Cuttino. Since we love to field 3 guards, if one goes down, Moochie can start as PG in the 3 guard line-up. That's why I think the PG spot on this team is our most important backup role....it allows one backup to cover injuries to 3 different players without really missing a beat.
Lock Moochie up long term. He is our most critical bench performer, especially since this team will be built around our guards it is imperative to have depth at that position. He's not a terrific shooter, but puts the ball in the basket at a commendable clip(45.5%). The fact is, Moochie is a starter coming off our bench, who is willing to come off the bench behind Francis despite the fact that he'd start for the Knicks or the Lakers. ------------------ The Rockets will be the NBA champions. Believe.
why are we looking at only good teams? we want to be great don't we? 1. Brian Grant is PROVEN...don't rank moochie that high please...the guys you listed are all so much better and more proven than moochie or have much more potential(just my opinion). He's only played half a year (didnt do squat last year), and u are comparing him to those guys? who the hell is Turkoglu btw? Like Sammy said earlier, why not just sign him to like for the short term and wait and see? why do you have to sign for so long? what if we find a better backup point guard in a few years that could put us over the top? you really think he's going to improve that much like the Cat? when you say starter quality, you guys really think that he could start for really good teams? or just sucky teams? we are losing our point. What it all boils down to is whether you think Mooch is an Integral part of our offense LONGTERM, not shorterm...have to look beyond this year...I say NO. Just my opinion...good chance i'm wrong by looking at the other post here, I'm the minority. Our offense revolves around Steve, cat, shandon, and Mo for the time being. Of course hes great for us right now off the bench, but we are talking about a 6 year commitment here. Give him more time to prove himself. I don't get why you can't wait to see what he's all about first before we make this 6 year commitment. ------------------
sure we can make these comparisons. we can make these comparisons in a relative manner. obviously, the salaries won't be the same. So, relatively speaking, Brian Grant is a reserve who will never beat out the starter. Same with most those comparisons. And these were off the top of my head. There's surely many more. Question is: are you against long term contracts to role players who don't start, yet allow great flexibility in rotations. If you would pay $7-8M to Grant over 6 yrs to backup Wallace, why not $1.5m to Moochie? It is all relative. You seem to be solely against longterm contracts, cause we've been burned before. I can understand that. We all can. About the "start on a good team". Yes, someone already mentioned the Lakers and Knicks would likely pursue Moochie for more than $1.5m. I'd agree with that, wouldn't you? And about the 2-3yr vs 6yr, this is called bargaining. Players, like Cuttino, who want career stability will often accept lower than market per year for the larger total contract. Your way can actually end up costing us much more for the initial contract, and a lot more over time, if we determine after 3 yrs we want him another 3; his stock will likely have risen greater that 12.5%/yr. It is somewhat an economics argument. Overall, I agree with you that it is a risk. Just not nearly as risky as Maloney. Moochie will maintain trade value. It's not like we eat the salary if we find we don't need him anymore. [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited January 30, 2001).]
Mooch would not start for the Lakers or the Knicks. Phil Jackson doesn't like short guards, and he doesn't like roleplayers who are below-average defensively. And Charlie Ward fills his role perfectly on the Knicks. Stats don't tell the story of his contribution to that team. I really like Mooch as a backup guard, but he's not starter material. ------------------ I am Jack's utter lack of surprise. www.clutchtown.com
There are 42 point guardsin the West: Abdul-Rauf, Mahmoud / Tie Anthony, Greg / Mooch Avery, William / Mooch Barkley, Erick / indertermined Bibby, Mike / Bibby Blaylock, Mookie / Blaylock Boykins, Earl / tie Brandon, Terrell / Brandon Crotty, John / Mooch Cummings, Vonteego / Tie Daniels, Antonio / Tie Davis, Emanual / Mooch Delk, Tony / Delk Eisley, Howard / Mooch Fisher, Derek / Fisher Francis, Steve / Francis Grant, Gary / Mooch Harper, Ron / right now, Mooch Johnson, Avery / Mooch Kerr, Steve / Mooch Kidd, Jason / Kidd Lue, Tyronne / Mooch Martin, Darrick / Mooch McInnis, Jeff / Mcinnis Nash, Steve / Nash Pack, Robert / Mooch Padgett, Scott / Mooch Payton, Gary / Payton Penberthy, Mike / Mooch Perry, Elliot / Mooch Porter, Terry / Mooch Price, Brent / Mooch Shaw, Brian / Mooch Smith, Steve / Smith Starks, John / Starks Stockton, John / Stockton Stoudamire, Damon / Stoudamire Van Exel, Nick / Van Exel Vaughn, Jacque / Vaughn will be better Williams, Jason / Williams Williams, Shammond / Tie By my calculations, Mooch is very possible the 15th best PG in the West. If that's true, he's probably within the top 12 PGs in the east. So, as a pesimist, I would say Mooch is one of the top 29 PGs in the league. But I'm pretty sure he's much much better than that. Wouldn't u like to have that backing u up? him also being a combo guard? he can play the SG position too. I say we sign him over 4 years. Starting at 2.5mill, then 3mill, then 3.5mill, and finally 4mill. And THAT, my friends, would be ripping off Mooch. He's worth a lot more than Kenny Anderson, Charlie Ward, or Chris Childs. My contract would be perfect, and we could trade him easily cause he wouldn't be overpaid. ------------------
As for why not sign him to a small contract till he's proven. It's probably cause he could find a starting gig on the Knicks, Celtics, Bulls, Pistons. He can get more minutes next year as a backup with the Raptors, Jazz, Hornets, Warriors, Heat, Spurs, and the Grizlies. He can have the same amount of time on a contender as a backup fpr the Blazers, Lakers (Phil is as good as gone). So that's why. There are 12 teams in there. How many arguements can u provide? for 6 of the teams? 6 teams battling us for him would be more than enough. plus, almost all those teams will have the 4million exception, and we won't. Tie him up long term, and if he draws interest, trade him. It's THAT simple. ------------------
Earl Boykins and Rauf better than MOO? ------------------ "Break off the block like Maurice Green" --- Steve Francis President of the Moochie Norris fan club.
You are missing the point. Sign him 4 mill next year, I don't care...Just not 6 friggn years...I have a question for you. Go through all that you listed on top. How many guys that are tied or lower level than mooch are you willing to sign them to a 6 year contract???????? there's my point...its the length of the contract that bothers me for his skills and potential, I'm not saying not sign him...just not long term..Mooch is not better than anthony but thats besides the point... ------------------
The reason we sign him to 4 years, i agree not 6, is cause we wanna keep him below market value. if he has a realy good year next year, then we'll have to pay him more. This way, we can just trade him. Oh, and, YES, Rauf is just slow right now cause he's been out for a while and Boykins is WAYY underrated. ------------------
HP- you are right, I don't like the long term contracts cuz we've been burned before with the sucky players we signed...when i really think about it..the risk is not that big because of the amount in his contract if you compare it to cato's...why did i made such a big deal about it? ------------------
you guys think too highly of Mooch thats probably why...hes not very good at all in my eyes to sign him longterm...but the risk is not too high... [This message has been edited by ChenZhen (edited January 30, 2001).]
