1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Gays & Lesbians...By Choice or by Nature???

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Lil Pun, Jun 6, 2003.

?

Gays/Lesbians

  1. They are bound to be that way through their genes.

    46 vote(s)
    37.4%
  2. It's just a fad for most people but sooner or later it will pass.

    31 vote(s)
    25.2%
  3. It's a mix, half of them chose it because they want it the other half are programmed through their g

    46 vote(s)
    37.4%
  1. Jeff

    Jeff Clutch Crew

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 1999
    Messages:
    22,412
    Likes Received:
    362
    Ah, to be 22 and have all the answers. I remember those days.

    Such sweet, sweet memories.

    :D
     
  2. OmegaSupreme

    OmegaSupreme Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2003
    Messages:
    6,394
    Likes Received:
    1,504
    have you ever been a minority in anything, twhy77? :confused:

    growing up, i lived in a predominately white neighborhood and was subject to teasing every so often. i was often called a n*gger without knowing what it meant. i remember skipping down a sidewalk after school singing this song that i heard from somebody else earlier that day:

    "jingle bells,
    batman smells,
    robin layed an egg..."

    and somewhere one of the lines says,

    "...pulled a trigger, shot n*gger."

    good stuff, eh?

    that same neighborhood was divided into to parts.... the larger white section that i lived in where the houses were nicer... and the smaller black section that was referred to as "n*ggertown" by the people i that called friends at the time. after questioning what they meant (because i had no idea), all i got were smiles and laughs.

    i didn't play start playing basketball for fun until i was 12 or 13. i still lived in the same neighboorhood in which there was a small elementary school with a basketball court with six goals. a lot of the other guys would pick me on their team thinking that i could play at the time. after one of the games was over i overheard one of the guys saying, "he sure doesn't play basketball like a n*gger". again, i heard what he said, but acted as if i didn't.

    going to college, i started a gay/lesbian organization in east texas. we were the butt of jokes there as well. the members had a nickname for me... "the bouncer". on campus, there was a function where all organizations on campus put together a booth in the quadrangle for incoming freshman to see what student life had to offer. we drew quite a few stares. i remember a fraternity (sig eps) walked past and said something derogatory (can't remember). i questioned another one of the members as to what was said and immediately jumped over the booth's wall, ran into the eating area where i saw them walk off to, and confronted them. all i remember was something about "handling something off campus", "threating to report the incident to the sga", and "demanding a letter of apology" that they agreed to send by mail. of course we never received it.

    during my freshman year, my dormmate that i treated like a brother at times, moved out shortly after i came out of the closet. that was perfectly fine. i didn't want him to being teased by his frat brothers. later in the second sememster i heard from several close friends (each with the same story) that he was spreading rumors around campus that he moved out because he was afraid that i would come on to him. again, i treated this guy like a brother. i actually introduced him to the people in the frat (sigma nu). they wanted me to be in the fraternity until i revealed myself. i confronted him also.

    there was a movie theater somewhat close to campus and a friend of mine (a straight catholic guy) asked me to go with him there and i accepted. during the movie there were only a few others inside and a group of four other guys. of course they were talking in the theater, so i asked politely if they would stop. their response? "you and your *** friend f**k off". they assumed i was gay (which i am), but they also assumed my friend was gay (which he wasn't). after a short shouting match, they were kicked out of the theater and we got our money back.

    i've long gotten over that crap. my question is... why would anyone want to subject myself to any of that garbage? a lot of people have it or have had it much, much worse. people have gotten badly hurt and sometimes killed. every once in a while, twhy77, you just have to go with what makes sense.

    sorry for getting upset earlier, but even if your argument only consisted of these two words... "the bible"... instead of just "casual sex", that would have been sufficient to shut me the hell up (for a little while anyway). :)
     
    #182 OmegaSupreme, Jul 24, 2003
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2003
  3. outlaw

    outlaw Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 1999
    Messages:
    4,496
    Likes Received:
    3
    Thanks B-bob. I try to keep my cool on this issue but unfortunately have failed a few times to do so. It's an emotional issue for many but I agree it's important to keep it civil and rational.

    twhy, you're obviously an intelligent well read person but it appears that you don't have much life experience on this topic. am I wrong?

    I'm sorry if I said anything here to enrage you but I did not appreciate your inference that gays are frauds. You don't have to like us but don't deny our existence. Whether we are this way by nature or nurture, we are here to stay.

    Also, I wasn't offended by your use of the term "butt pirate" (in another thread) just disappointed. You can use that term all you want, just don't expect most people here to take you seriously when you do.
     
  4. bnb

    bnb Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2002
    Messages:
    6,992
    Likes Received:
    316
    Totally off topic, but I spent some time as a kid in Belize, where my sister and I were among the only white kids in class.

    We were called "white mice" and told "Black is Beautiful"...To which we replied that we might be white on the outside, but were blacker than them on the inside -- having absolutely no idea what we were talking about ;) .

    Big difference, of course, we never felt pre-judged, threatened, stigmatized or the such. Just a curious flashback when I read your post. Of a much more innocent time.

    Carry on.

    PS - outlaw -- great posting. you have more patience than just about anybody here.
     
  5. OmegaSupreme

    OmegaSupreme Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2003
    Messages:
    6,394
    Likes Received:
    1,504
    your incident in belize is totally on topic.

    yes, it was a very innocent time until the college years and like i said i'm not stigmatized at all from childhood incidents. however, that doesn't mean that the incidents aren't wrong.

    not getting a dose of what you and your sister suffered from in belize or any other form of discrimination makes it harder to fathom why a particular minority group functions the way that it does. there's a lot of people that have grown up separated from a different race of people and hadn't seen a person of that race until their teens or after. unless, you are taught (no matter if you were taught the right or wrong thing) what that culture is about, then it makes it much harder to understand what they are about.

    if you haven't been a minority in any sense, it's almost as if you're on the outside looking in, unless you take the time to study that culture. for example, i have no idea what it's like to go through the struggles that women go through today. i know of some of them. image, glass ceiling, etc. until i've walked in their shoes... and i can't... i'll never know physically what it's like to suffer their struggles. so for me to say that "women have the same opportunity in the workplace as men" would be completely wrong.

    until you've experienced or take the time to study these cultures, then of course you're going to prejudge them.

    have you heard that song by called "what it's like" by everlast?

    stigmatized? like i said before, no. confused? yes.

    and yes outlaw's post are great. i wish i had as much patience, although some are undeserving.
     
    #185 OmegaSupreme, Jul 24, 2003
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2003
  6. twhy77

    twhy77 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2002
    Messages:
    4,041
    Likes Received:
    73
    Ok I haven't checked back here since noon, and I'm sorry for that since everybody has been attacking me on this. First off let me say that I don't hate gay people. I don't ever remember saying that. I've gotten in a lot of discussions with people today about the topic, Catholic guys who were discussing it logically, and I've come to some good conclusions. I guess I can say that it does exhist. However, that said, I still think the act of engaging in homosexual sex is a sin, just like I would think other things are a sin, things that I do like talk bad about people behind their backs, or be mean or whatnot. We all have vices we need to overcome, and if a gay relationship is mainly about sex (please read this statement correctly I'm not saying all gay relationships I'm saying one in particular) then I think that is bad. I mean I guess I don't really have any experience with a lot of gay people, but I guess my ill perceptions just come from the media, where you see groups like TATU performing on stage and they just dance around in their underwear. On the opposite side of the coin I think that a lot of straight people conduct theirselves poorly. I can see where you guys would think that I was trying to reduce everything down to sex, but thats not really what I was trying to do. I think sex is a part of true and charitable love between people in an amourous relationship, but its not the whole thing. I will definitely make the attempt to try and understand gays more you guys have been a good help. And yes I have been a minority, I grew up Catholic in the Bible belt, say what you want but thats not easy. Hopefully we can all learn a thing or two from each other, but I hope you guys don't think I hate you or else I would have to hate myself for all the things I do that I think are wrong. Oh, and when you say that I would kick my own child in the teeth if I found out he was gay, and then gave me a quote that I would probably call him, that was misquoting me and that pissed me off. Ok, peace be with everyone.
     
  7. Jeff

    Jeff Clutch Crew

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 1999
    Messages:
    22,412
    Likes Received:
    362
    I commend you on your willingness to be open to things. But, I think this quote strikes at the heart of what bothers people.

    You obviously seem like a guy who values intellect, yet you went after gays and made blanket statements about who they were even though you admit you don't have any experience with them and the bulk of your knowledge and perception of them comes from the media and pop culture.

    I think you were honorable in admitting that you may have been unaware of all the issues and what some others said to you was pretty damn over the top. I just think this is a valuable lesson for ANYONE
    who wishes to debate an issue. If you don't fully understand what you are discussing, maybe it would be better to follow the old addage...

    Better to keep my mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and prove it.

    :)
     
  8. outlaw

    outlaw Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 1999
    Messages:
    4,496
    Likes Received:
    3
    good post twhy. i'm glad we are helping to open your eyes a little bit even if we never agree with each other. i understand where you are coming from with you being a devout catholic (my entire family and most of my straight friends are too). hopefully you will be able to meet more gay people in and out of the church so you can make a more informed decision. best of luck.

    also, if you can prove that TATU are really lesbians, I will read your Aquinas book and go to church every Sunday for a year! :)

    to paraphase a great man;

    THREAD CLOSED.
     
  9. OmegaSupreme

    OmegaSupreme Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2003
    Messages:
    6,394
    Likes Received:
    1,504
    not closed just yet, outlaw.

    twhy, sorry for it getting a little heated earlier. yeah, it can be a touchy subject and if i can't stand the heat... well... i need to stay out the f'ing kitchen. i'm banning myself from d&d now... well... i'll lurk, but that's all.

    just have to learn how to agree to disagree... while being civil.

    i seriously hope that you don't listen to t.a.t.u. if you do, then maybe we can start a thread here in d&d and debate on that for a little while. ;)

    "all the things they say, all the things they say...
    is stupid anyway, stupid anyway, stupid anyway!"

    sorry... had to revise the lyrics.

    anyway, no hard feelings from my side.

    now the thread is closed.
     
  10. MadMax

    MadMax Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 1999
    Messages:
    76,683
    Likes Received:
    25,924
    Omega and outlaw -- your graciousness is greatly appreciated. clearly two intelligent and thoughtful people.
     
  11. Legendary21

    Legendary21 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2001
    Messages:
    363
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don´t think it´s choice, and I don´t think it´s genetic. I think it´s environmental, but not by choice.
    Now you can all try to think specific situations.
     

Share This Page