Josh Smith?

JuckTheFazz! · Dec 23, 2014

Bobbythegreat said: ↑

If that was true, you'd expect the Rockets to have more brain dead chuckers. I seriously doubt anyone would call Josh Smith the prototypical Morey player.
Click to expand...

Ariza and Terry are kinda brain dead chuckers, especially lately.

Bobbythegreat · Dec 23, 2014

JuckTheFazz! said: ↑

Ariza and Terry are kinda brain dead chuckers, especially lately.
Click to expand...

Fair point.

J Sizzle · Dec 23, 2014

JuckTheFazz! said: ↑

Ariza and Terry are kinda brain dead chuckers, especially lately.
Click to expand...

I at least feel fairly confident with Terry shooting the 3. Ariza is disastrous right now shooting the ball.

tmacfor35 · Dec 23, 2014

J Sizzle said: ↑

I at least feel fairly confident with Terry shooting the 3. Ariza is disastrous right now shooting the ball.
Click to expand...

I think it has to do with tired legs.

This recent additions of Brewer, schved, and hopefully Smith will get his legs back.

ATXNekko · Dec 23, 2014

Number 5 is open on the roster.

Aleron · Dec 23, 2014

it was impossible for anyone in detroit to score in the paint, drummond, monroe, as well as smith are all massively down.

Opposing teams just packed them because no one can shoot

CrashTheBoards · Dec 23, 2014

conundrum said: ↑

What are the examples of him being a "cancer" or disruptive force in the locker room?
Click to expand...

There are none. People just think he is a cancer because he chucks up bad jumpers sometimes.

They do not know the difference between a chucker, a shot maker, and a cancer.

J smoove is a chucker
Reke is a cancer and a chucker
Harden is a big shot maker

A cancer is infectious both on and off the court but mainly off the court. He does dumb things like drive 150 mph on the highway, complains to to his teammates and the coaching staff about playing time or not getting enough shots, etc.

I dont think j smoove is a cancer. As long as the shots he chucks up,are wide open threes from the wing/corner then keep chucking.

CrashTheBoards · Dec 23, 2014

Also, reke has been getting his act together lately. JR smith is a cancer, kobe is a cancer, some people labeled lance stephenson a cancer in the locker room.

Aleron · Dec 23, 2014

CrashTheBoards said: ↑

I dont think j smoove is a cancer. As long as the shots he chucks up,are wide open threes from the wing/corner then keep chucking.
Click to expand...

The guys on the starters made a good point, he could work in the starting lineup because the shots he would take are the shots James decides he should take.

J.R. · Dec 23, 2014

The Josh Smith conundrum

December 23, 2014

In our ongoing NBA Front Office series, Tom Penn (general manager), Chad Ford (assistant GM), Amin Elhassan (scouting director) and Kevin Pelton (analytics director) are joined by NBA Front Office's senior consultant, David Thorpe. Today, the group weighs in on the Detroit Pistons waiving forward Josh Smith.

Want in on the conversation or have a question for one of the guys? Use #NBAFrontOffice.

Tom Penn: So let's first evaluate what we think happened in the Detroit Pistons' front office that motivated them to waive Josh Smith with two years and almost $26 million left on his contract.

David Thorpe: This is a gigantic case of emotion getting the best of the coaching side of Stan Van Gundy. If you had a true team president, he would be able to say, "Coach, if you don't want him part of the team we can leave him on the bus, we can leave him at home. But it's not the time to cut Smith. Just because we couldn't get a good trade for him up to now doesn't mean we won't have something by February. It's not your money. We just can't throw this away, and throw this potential asset away. We always have this option of waiving him later." The hit financially and in terms of assets, is a gigantic case of poor emotions and poor management.

Chad Ford: I agree with David. This only happens in the case where you have a general manager who's also the coach. However, for weeks the Pistons have been trying to trade Josh Smith, and the only team that showed any interest was the Sacramento Kings. Two, I think the only trades they could've made might have even put them in worse shape financially down the road, would've taken draft picks or would've forced them to take back even more costly contracts than they currently had.

From a pure business standpoint, I think the Pistons are going to use the stretch provision; they're going to be able to stretch this contract out for five years and the $26 million that he has remaining. But they will go into the summer now with their draft picks intact, and they will be able to have more money to re-sign Greg Monroe if they want to. And they'll have enough money under the cap to sign another free agent. It's a huge hit to the owner, I think it was premature, but I do think in the long run it probably puts the Pistons in a solid position going forward.

Penn: So, Kevin, can you just quickly break down the money and how this stretch provision will look? Instead of being on the books for $13 million the next two seasons, it breaks down to what?

Kevin Pelton: He's got $27 million for the last two years of his contract, so assuming they stretch it, it's $5.4 million per year for the next five years, instead what would've been $13.5 -- an addition of about $8 million to their salary cap space this summer. And, the one interesting thing that comes into play here is there's also the "set-off provision" of the CBA: if he makes more than the minimum salary, they can set off half of that amount.

According to our cap guru Larry Coon, it sounds like that will apply for the full five years, assuming they stretch that. So even beyond the life of what would've been his current contract, it probably won't change things much this season. But next summer, if he's a free agent and gets, let's say, the mid-level exception, that's almost a couple of million off this that they would additionally be able to take off their cap. I think that's the strongest argument to me in favor of waiving him as opposed to trying to trade him for smaller contracts, or just completely dump this contract and give up a bunch of first-round picks -- you do get some of that back just by other teams valuing him still as a free agent to some extent.

Penn: Yeah, you're right. The stretch provision goes out for the number of years, which is advantageous in the short term, but it puts them on the books for the long term. It only makes sense if they're able to go spend the money now to their advantage. Otherwise, it's an empty release where you're pushing it later and you now have this $5 million obligation three years out, and that's not insignificant. So, this is a head-scratcher in many ways.

Pelton: As Coach Thorpe pointed out it's the pitfall of having the dual role of coach and general manager. The coach is thinking, "I don't like this team, I want this cap space now," because five years down the road, in 2020, when we're still paying him, I'm not necessarily concerned about that, because I've got to try and win right now. No one's thinking about the long-term future of the organization.

Amin Elhassan: It's incredibly short-sighted, and this is what happens, not necessarily just when the coach is also the general manager. Let's be honest, SVG wasn't working the phones, it's Jeff Bower who was working the phones. A regular relationship is: Coach goes to GM and says, "You got to get this guy off my hands, you got to get rid of him." And the GM says, "Look, we'll get to him when we get to him, we're not going to make a bad deal," as opposed to my boss [Van Gundy] coming to me [Bower] and saying, "We've got to get rid of this guy."

Again, it's a different mentality if I'm coaching day-to-day, and I'm worried about today and possibly tomorrow, while someone else is worried about months, years in advance. You're serving different worlds there. It just doesn't work. Unless you have someone specifically that you have in mind that you're going to need the cap space this summer, you just did this move for no reason. They could've waited untilthe trade deadline, they could've waited until after the trade deadline or done a buyout. "Josh, if you don't want to do a buyout, you can stay at home for the next two years. Or, we can do a buyout, save some money, and you can go sign with a contender right now." Obviously you have to do something that works financially for both sides, but that's still a better scenario.

Penn: The buyout route that you just described is the traditional, normal, 9 out of 10 times, that's the way it would get done. There are plenty of examples, but particularly, these higher, double-digit salaries, where the player still has plenty of value, well, nobody wanted him at $13.5 because he's a midlevel or less kind of guy. But he still can really help and be a difference-maker. So we'll see plenty of interest in him at the biannual or minimum. So that's why you can pre-negotiate these buyouts, save all of the money up front. But all this does is rid them of Smith in the locker room. There's absolutely no change in circumstances now, other than they can play the young guys without a really crabby veteran on the end of the bench.
I will tell you, that in my years in the front office, no less than five different occasions, my head coach came in upset, reeling and angry and demanding that we waive or get rid of a guy by Monday. I had one Hall of Fame coach come in and say "get rid of three guys by Monday or I quit." It's a very normal, emotional thing, because you want that head coach focused on the next three days rather than the next three years, which is the front office's job.

Thorpe: Let's also look at the bigger picture of not just where the Pistons are, but specifically at Andre Drummond who had a very, very bad start, but he's now at 15 PPG and 14 RPG for the month of December -- really playing some dominating basketball -- and he's going to be 21 years old all season. He's not Anthony Davis, but this guy is a gigantic franchise All-Star center talent and you have to be wondering what he's thinking about this franchise's long-term outlook.

Pelton: I think the issue here is Monroe. There's been a lot of talk that he would not be going back there as a free agent this summer after signing the qualifying offer and rejecting their long-term offers to become a restricted free agent. Part of the reason why, presumably, was their logjam at power forward and center. If you start Monroe at power forward and play 35 minutes a game, does it actually help your chances of signing him this summer? I don't know if that relationship is already too far gone to be repaired, but it seems like it can't hurt.

Elhassan: But I don't think Monroe is a power forward. I think he's a center, and the logjam is with Drummond. If you're Monroe, you'll always play out of position alongside Drummond. So, absent a highly lucrative offer coming from Detroit, I don't think moving Smith really helps that much. I mean, it frees up the minutes, but this summer, if he gets an offer from one team that says "you're our starting center," and one from the Pistons, Monroe walks. As long as he plays alongside Drummond, he's basically curtailing his game for someone else.

Ford: Hey, that's nothing that another huge contract can't solve!

[laughter]

Penn: Too true. With David Falk, Monroe's agent, clearly stating "we are leaving and looking for greener pastures," how do you guys think this affects Monroe's relationship with the Pistons?

Ford: I think it's interesting because there's a lot of money next year and it's not a great free agent crop. Which I think helps Monroe. The fact he was coming off the bench and playing up and down this season probably didn't help his case. It'll be interesting now if he's inserted into the starting lineup and playing 35 minutes a night. His numbers have been good the last few seasons. Again, this doesn't actually hurt the Pistons even if Monroe puts up numbers that justify a big contract. I think -- based on what I understood this summer -- if Monroe can get a big contract somewhere else, he's gone. Now, the Pistons can outbid everybody, and I think in all of our experiences most of the time, money talks in the NBA. And if he could make a lot more money in Detroit than anywhere else, he re-signs in Detroit no matter what the bad blood there is.

Penn: So who's interested in Smith? ESPN's Marc Stein reported several teams might be interested. So, midlevel on down, who has the advantage going into this period to be able to say to Smith, "We can give you more than anyone else"? Does anyone have more money to throw at him?

Pelton: I wrote about that in my piece today, and none of these teams that have been linked to him (Dallas, Houston, Clippers, Miami, Sacramento) still have the midlevel left. The only one that still has its biannual left is Houston. So they're the only team that can offer him the minimum salary, and that does not begin to prorate until January, so they still can offer him that full amount, whereas anyone else would be signing him for the veteran minimum. That would be a prorated amount based on percentage of the season. After you account for the set-off with his contract, he ends up netting about 500K more this season if he signs with the Rockets.

Penn: So where's the best place for him to land?

Thorpe: I definitely love Miami for him, for two reasons. One is, they're an atrocious shot-blocking team, they're last in blocked shots per game (3.3). That's something Smith could help. They also have a unique set of veterans who are tremendous team guys -- guys like Chris Bosh and Udonis Haslem and Dwyane Wade and Chris Andersen who are just universally liked and can appeal to Smith. I think he'd play a decent amount there and I think they'll help him play better. He couldn't get out of his own way in Detroit, but that doesn't mean he doesn't want to be good again.

Elhassan: One of things about having Josh McRoberts getting hurt is they really miss that passing big. And I don't think how good a passer Smith is gets talked about enough. So for Miami, he definitely fills that need.

Pelton: I don't think Miami is going anywhere with or without Smith this season. In terms of impact, I think the Clippers are where he could maybe make the biggest difference. They don't really have that athletic stretch power forward who can play next to Spencer Hawes in the second unit, and it would take care of the spacing a little bit and not have Smith standing around on the perimeter bricking jump shots.

Ford: I'd be surprised if he doesn't sign with Houston. I think his relationship with Dwight Howard and the aggressive interest of the Rockets probably prevails. I want to see him in Sacramento, just because [owner] Vivek Ranadive fired his coach, in part, because he resisted bringing in Smith. They want to play up-tempo. They could have one of the all-time worst cultures in the NBA! They could trade for Deron Williams -- Marc Stein's reported they're linked to Williams in a trade. They could run him, Ben McLemore, Rudy Gay, DeMarcus Cousins out there. They can play uptempo. They'll be the most entertaining team to watch in the league! Here's an owner who thinks that he knows the game, who thinks that he's got this figured out. So, let's see it happen. Talk about League Pass alert! We'd all be tuning in to watch that team every night.

Thorpe: It would be like tuning into NASCAR to see the crashes.

Ford: They can say, "Look, we were the only team in the league that tried to trade for you. We tried to get it done this summer. We tried to get it done last week, we're going to give you a starting position, we're going to give you 35-40 minutes a night. You can do whatever you want." The only other question they'd ask? "Do you play jazz?"

[laughter, referring to Ranadive's bizarre quote that the next coach of the Kings needs to be a "jazz director."]

Penn: OK, it's easy for us all to pick out the warts here. And Amin, that's a good call of Smith as a passer -- something I wouldn't have initially thought of him as. Kevin, do you have any numbers, or anything, what does he do well?

Pelton: I wonder if he's the same guy athletically that he was in Atlanta. Since he was always so dependent on the athleticism, I wonder by age 29, is he like another player at age 32, because the aging process goes so quickly. But the counterpoint is, his block-steal rates are still pretty good, his block numbers are actually up this season compared to the last few. On a rate basis, his rebounds are a little up this season playing more power forward and less small forward like he did last season. So, those are still very positive, and if you compare him to power forwards -- Amin is correct -- his assist levels have always been excellent for that position.

Thorpe: He's the only guy besides Davis who is top 10 in blocks and can also defend 3s. So there is some real versatility and flexibility with him defensively, which is why I talk about Miami, since they just have such a desperate need for rim protection, and they could use him at multiple positions.

Elhassan: From a scouting point of view, I will say athletically he's not the same. He is still getting his numbers because he's a pretty smart and savvy defender; he's got excellent length and he is more mobile than your average big. But he's not finishing above the rim nearly as often as he used to. He really struggles to get explosion. And, a lot of times, because he doesn't have that burst or step to get by guys, he ends up taking some really questionable shots around the rim that almost looks like he's slinging it with a prayer, hoping it'll hit something and drop in.

But, again, if we're talking about his positives, I still think he's got enough quickness as a big to definitely make an impact defensively. And offensively, again, if you can put him in a box, I think that's the biggest thing. If you can put him in a box offensively and say, "Look, I need you to do this, this and this, and please don't stray off this game plan," I think he could still be very efficient and effective as a scorer for you.

Penn: Good luck with that box...

[laughter]

Penn: There's also Dallas who's interested. It could be a good fit because of the organizational alignment and pecking order installed there. I think so much of what Smith would need to hear is this is a chance for him to excel and succeed. And Rick Carlisle is the best at seeing the good and getting the good out of everybody. Mark Cuban is the best at being an empowered owner who knows his place. And then [GM] Donnie Nelson is the best at just playing his role in between those two worlds. Tremendous organizational alignment there and that would actually be a place for Smith to excel and get into whatever "box" Carlisle puts him in, because he would find a way to really max-out Smith. I think that would be a great fit for him -- if they really want him.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/stor...derTwitter_nbafrontoffice_joshsmithcondundrum
Click to expand...

 

declan32001 · Dec 23, 2014

Odd that Houston isn't a logical destination. ESPN must not think we're legit or D-Mo is better than even we think he is.

Raven · Dec 23, 2014

declan32001 said: ↑

Odd that Houston isn't a logical destination. ESPN must not think we're legit or D-Mo is better than even we think he is.
Click to expand...

#### ESPN

loveofthegame44 · Dec 23, 2014

http://hoopshype.com/twitter/media.html

crash5179 · Dec 23, 2014

loveofthegame44 said: ↑

http://hoopshype.com/twitter/media.html
Click to expand...

Was there a point to your post?

AroundTheWorld · Dec 23, 2014

J.R. said: ↑

No you wouldn't. The Pistons would wish you a very Merry Christmas.

What you meant to say is you'd sign him to vet. minimum or the biannual exception once he clears waivers.
Click to expand...

Yes, that's what I meant, of course.

J.R. · Dec 23, 2014

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Last year I asked Josh Smith about shot selection: "People try to throw statistics in there. I'm not one to look at where I am on the court"</p>— Jeff Zillgitt (@JeffZillgitt) <a href="https://twitter.com/JeffZillgitt/status/547552662217314304">December 24, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>I presented Smith w/his shootings %s inside of eight feet and beyond eight feet. Basically he said he's a basketball player with confidence.</p>— Jeff Zillgitt (@JeffZillgitt) <a href="https://twitter.com/JeffZillgitt/status/547555399776604161">December 24, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Bobbythegreat · Dec 23, 2014

J.R. said: ↑

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Last year I asked Josh Smith about shot selection: "People try to throw statistics in there. I'm not one to look at where I am on the court"</p>— Jeff Zillgitt (@JeffZillgitt) <a href="https://twitter.com/JeffZillgitt/status/547552662217314304">December 24, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>I presented Smith w/his shootings %s inside of eight feet and beyond eight feet. Basically he said he's a basketball player with confidence.</p>— Jeff Zillgitt (@JeffZillgitt) <a href="https://twitter.com/JeffZillgitt/status/547555399776604161">December 24, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
Click to expand...

http://youtu.be/FZhrwS5W2Xk

kemah · Dec 23, 2014

lol

Bobbythegreat said: ↑

http://youtu.be/FZhrwS5W2Xk
Click to expand...

At around 2 million a year you can get one of the best defenders in the NBA to come play you take the chance. He will average 10+ rebounds a game. He will defend every big bad ass PF that the western conference can throw at us in the playoffs. What is the hang up?

pippendagimp · Dec 23, 2014

josh smith working out with hakeem a few yrs ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bqny1IUa2Wc

Bobbythegreat · Dec 23, 2014

kemah said: ↑

At around 2 million a year you can get one of the best defenders in the NBA to come play you take the chance. He will average 10+ rebounds a game. He will defend every big bad ass PF that the western conference can throw at us in the playoffs. What is the hang up?
Click to expand...

Well first of all, he won't even be the best defensive PF on the roster when it comes to guarding "big bad ass PF's"

Also, it's just a funny link, enjoy it.

Forums

Josh Smith?

JuckTheFazz! Rookie

Bobbythegreat Member
Supporting Member

J Sizzle Member

tmacfor35 Member

ATXNekko Member

Aleron Member

CrashTheBoards Member

CrashTheBoards Member

Aleron Member

J.R. Member

declan32001 Member

Raven Member

loveofthegame44 Member

crash5179 Member

AroundTheWorld Member

J.R. Member

Bobbythegreat Member
Supporting Member

kemah Member

pippendagimp Member

Bobbythegreat Member
Supporting Member

Share This Page

About ClutchFans

Rockets Content

Support ClutchFans!

Josh Smith?

JuckTheFazz! Rookie

Bobbythegreat Member Supporting Member

J Sizzle Member

tmacfor35 Member

ATXNekko Member

Aleron Member

CrashTheBoards Member

CrashTheBoards Member

Aleron Member

J.R. Member

declan32001 Member

Raven Member

loveofthegame44 Member

crash5179 Member

AroundTheWorld Member

J.R. Member

Bobbythegreat Member Supporting Member

kemah Member

pippendagimp Member

Bobbythegreat Member Supporting Member

Share This Page

Bobbythegreat Member
Supporting Member

Bobbythegreat Member
Supporting Member

Bobbythegreat Member
Supporting Member