Muslims groom and rape over 1400 underage girls in Rotherham, England

I think she is either struggling to spell out the truth because it's hard to shake the shackles of that particular religious ideology if you have been spoon fed that religion from an early age (as we can witness even with clearly intelligent people on this forum - it's like a drug) or she doesn't want to hurt feelings of those close to her or get them in trouble (remember, publicly denouncing Islam is heavily sanctioned and stigmatized within that community, with consequences not only for the person herself, but for her family). I cannot imagine that she wouldn't know intellectually that there is an obvious connection.

You cannot separate culture and religion in a culture that is totally dominated by religion.

 

I think you are confusing the religion with the culture. Christianity by it's nature is patriarchal and for many years women had less rights than men. It's still is patriarchal because it based on the same exact texts. But while the religion is constant, the culture and interpretation of the religion has changed over time. It wasn't so long ago that women couldn't vote in America after all.

Fact nearly every major culture was at one deeply sexist. It's not unique to Islam.

So yes, I think it is mainly cultural and simply the fact that men created the religion as they created all religions which was a tool for dominating women.

The west has undergone the industrial revolution which was a key factor in women's rights. Islamic countries are still rooted in the past, the have yet to go through that kind of economic development which would make women a valuable resource and empower them. Women in the west were not given equality - they took it.

It's complex because it's very hard to separate out a religion from a culture as they are so intertwined. But history has shown that a culture can evolve while keeping the same religion - so it seems to me that just blaming Islam for this is a bit myopic.

 

I live in the present. And I see no other religious ideology at present which subjugates women as much as Islam does.

Which is exactly what I was saying and which invalidates your first quote in this post. You artifically try to separate them when it's convenient for your argument of trying to absolve the religious ideology Islam of responsibility.

No, the religion de facto has to change in order for the culture to change. And those who deny that are the myopic ones.

 

^^^That was a good post, ATW. Succinct and totally accurate.

 

1-Agreed
2-I've had this discussion several times with academics. I don't care for semantics and labels to the degree they do. Nor should we. If more Muslims truly grasped freedom of expression, then the religion would change consequently.

Islam is both an unchanging constant and a product of human creation. The Quran in its Arabic form means nothing to the majority of you. You only know it through the lens of whatever interpretation you read online (that interpretation can be a literal text, or it can be indirectly through how Muslims practice the religion). Yet, it exists independently of the interpretations.

3-I agree with Sweet Lou. Mostly, I see ex-Muslims whose culture/POV changed (they lived and assimilated in secular societies) hence their view on religion entirely changed. I was an ex-Muslim for a while before returning to the religion, but in a very different way. My interpretation was different the second time around thus Islam for me was different.

Since the religion has no central authority to act as a referee/spokesperson - for practical purposes - mainstream Islam is a creation of the literal and indirect interpretions you're observing. Islam cannot de facto change, at least not in the way most would understand. To say something can change, it implies it's exists independent of the observer. That a change in X is a change in Y if X causes Y. This is not so.

There is Islam, the product of the human interpreter, and then there is Islam, the way the Universe(s) and all the matter in it interacts with one another regardless of human meddling, according to the 'Mother of the Book' (the divine tablet upon which everything is predetermined).

TL;DR Change the society, let it think for itself if it even wants mainstream Islam or secularism, and the religion will change. Too few Muslims think for themselves, relying instead on others to decide their fate for them; or if they think, they're shunned, oppressed, etc. The religion has no mechanism for change, so target the interpreter instead.

 

You can't change Religion. After thousands of years, the major Religions of the world are largely the same as it was from the beginning. It's called Religion after all. It's extremely hard to do.

You can much easier change culture and society (which affects their view and interpretation of their Religion). When we talk about the Western way of live, do we mostly talk about the Western Religion or the Western Culture?

Catholic living in Vietnam (prior to 2000), for example, has a different view of their Religion vs Catholic living in the United State. Same religion, different culture and society, different view.

Not to the extreme as Islam, but in the present, there are still many culture and society that have a women as a 2nd class view (not just by the Men but by the Women themselves). Many Asian culture are still this way. Even many 1st to 2nd generation Asian living in the United State are still this way. By the 3rd generation, this way of view change drastically. Why? Not their Religion. Same Religion, but living under a different culture.

 

See, this is my problem with religion. It proposes absolute objective morality. However, in reality all it does is create a snapshot of a particular moral code from a particular culture many centuries ago. So in essense modern literalist followers of religion are following a moral structure that doesn't coincide with the updated morality that the rest of us follow.

 

And I bet that third generation doesn't view religion as an important part of their lives relative to their previous generation. So, at the end of the day less religion = less misogynistic culture. The Middle East will only improve when the general population of the region doesn't view religion as the most important aspect of their lives.

 

That shape the overall culture. But even for devoted Religious folks that I know, their view is so different from their parent and their great parents that came from a different culture. Makes complete sense to me. The culture you live in shape your view of the world and of your Religion.

 

This.

Have been to Israel and numerous spots in the Middle East.

Trust me, there are plenty of scumbags to go around.

Anyone that depicts any of the characters involved as "good guys" is naive.

 

Okay....... and how does this possibly help the situation right now?

 

This applies in the United States, but I'd argue in the Middle East those youth are as fanatic as ever. A lot of the traits and tendencies you develop are shaped by your environment. The U.S. really doesn't try to force religion down your throat, at least not the government.

Whereas you don't see as much separation from church and state in the Middle East.

 

Islam is more difficult because it IS the culture. That is where it gets really difficult unless you remove someone from the culture.

I have friends that were from families that were historically Muslims. By the third generation (my friends generation) they are nothing like Muslims in the middle east.

One is now Catholic (married a Catholic girl), one is an athiest, one is technically a Muslim but celebrates Christmas and has not stepped foot in a Mosque since he was a boy..... they all drink.

Also I have had a number of flings with Muslim girls in America and Europe and it was no harder to bed them than any others.

 

Are we talking about Muslim Americans or Muslims in Islamic states? I was referencing the latter but no doubt the US breeds independent thought and decision making when it comes to religion for the most part. Either that or I'm confusing it with anti religious rhetoric, in which case both explanations lead to the same end result anyway.

 

I doubt anyone will post this as a topic thread cause its not depicting their hatred for a certain group. Sad to see so much hate, people are so polarised no wonder we have crazy wack jobs everywhere.


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-29071073

One in 10 girls sexually abused, says UN report

About 120 million girls around the world - slightly more than one in 10 - have been raped or sexually assaulted by the age of 20, a UN report says.

It notes that children around the globe are routinely exposed to violence, including bullying.

The document draws on data from 190 countries.

Violence against children

120m girls - one in 10 - are raped or sexually attacked by age of 20
Boys also report experiences of sexual violence, but to a lesser extent than girls
The most common form of sexual violence for both genders is cyber-victimisation
95,000 children and teenagers were murdered in 2012
Slightly over one in three students aged 13-15 experience regular bullying in school
Six out of 10 children aged between two and 14 are physically punished by carers

 

And it is something around one in four women in American colleges who have experienced rape or attempted rape.

Meanwhile, colleges are ignoring or mishandling the issue.

http://time.com/topic/campus-sexual-assault/

Has no bearing on Ratherham but I thought I might as well post, too.

I will further say I have British friends who are not conservative but who nonetheless feel that British government and culture are far too lenient and accepting of certain cultural practices of immigrant communities. Practices that would be abhorrent for British communities are being ignored or tolerated out of fear of offending new arrivals. Something along those lines. I am too much a foreigner myself to really know if this is correct or have a personal feel for it.

 

This is certainly true at the very least in Britain, France, Germany, Spain and Denmark (of countries in Europe I have lived in or spent extended time).

But it's not so much only that it is out of fear of offending new arrivals, but, at least in Germany, since I can remember (I am in my early 40s now), if you expressed even moderate criticism of certain cultural/ideological practices, politicians from the left would immediately brand you a xenophobe, extreme right-wing person or even someone who "has the mindset of a neo-nazi". The leftists would also immediately demand that any such politician would have to step down.

The problem is that there are indeed xenophobes no reasonable person would want to be associated with.

So if you had/have a legitimate criticism of an ideology and express it, as well as skepticism regarding people who aggressively promote said ideology, you run the risk of being seen as one of those xenophobes, which of course nobody who is reasonable wants to be.

That unfortunate "squeeze" between the leftists who would immediately brand you a xenophobe, racist or whatever on the one hand and the actual xenophobes on the other hand, in effect, has for a long time stifled any discussion on how to deal with intolerant "cultural"/ideological practices of immigrants. You want to be tolerant and want to be seen as tolerant, but you are suddenly faced with aggressive intolerance - both from those who represent a certain ideology and from those who think they do good by treating them as saints just because that's what you have to do to be a better person than those "evil conservatives".

Where it gets tricky for the aggressive leftists is if you are the product of immigration yourself and ask critical/skeptical questions. Kind of hard to brand you a nazi if you are foreign-looking yourself and would have been one of the first victims of the nazis.

All I can say personally is that just because I am critical/skeptical towards the ideology of Islam, I am not a xenophobe. I detest racists and xenophobes. Although I have never personally felt affected by racism and xenophobia (I look somewhat Asian) in Germany, I can relate to how disgusting it must feel to be treated as a lesser person just because you look foreign.

But that still doesn't mean that I cannot question an ideology that - in my opinion - contributes to practices I regard as intolerant, hostile and unacceptable. That questioning that ideology leads to hostile reactions by people who might be of a particular racial or geographical background because there is a strong overlap between certain countries of origin and a certain ideology still doesn't give them a right to call me a racist or xenophobe. I am none of the two.

I am all for tolerance. The ideology I am criticizing is not. And that can be witnessed all over the world (probably least in the USA, which skews many well-meaning Americans' perception of the ideology) - not only in its most extreme forms of IS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Taliban, but in its core also in Western societies such as Britain and Germany.

 

How would you say that religion and culture are inseparable when you look at Christianity where on one hand you have groups acting in the name of Christiainity passing laws in Uganda that are violently anti-gay while in the US some Christian groups have taken the lead on legalizing gay marriage and have been conducting gay marriages long before any states in the US legalized them? Or for that matter consider that both Abolitionists and slave owners cited the same holy book to justify their positions.

Religion and culture are frequently closely tied but they are definitely separable. With any large religion like the Christianity and Islam there are going to be many differences between how it's practiced in one place versus another. For example middle class Americans for the most part lead lives more similar than they are different no matter what religion, or lack of religion, they have.

 

Very interesting and provocative! I think there is a lot of truth in this post, as well as a lot of food for thought. No one will ever accuse you of being a "hit and run" poster, ATW. -

 

Please separate religion and culture in Saudi Arabia for me, thanks.