DD it is over the top. But some folx on here . . as we see. . . won't get it The point is. . .just sitting and waiting it out never works Action works! openly Racist business will falter but not covert ones. I see progress everyday . .. . EVERYFRICKINGDAY but that does not mean we could not do more I mean . .. . If being a second class citizen in america is being better than being a 1st class citizen around the world THAT DOES NOT MEAN I SHOULD SETTLE FOR BEING A SECOND CLASS CITIZEN!!! Equality. . . . through and through The main thing is ... . Equality CANNOT be acheive with out help 400 yrs.. . . of suffering . . .. MENTAL AND PHYSICAL AND ECONOMIC cannot be made up in 40 yrs [opening pandora's box here. . but f*ck it] 140 yrs ago . .. the physical bonds came off 40 years ago . . .the economic bonds came off some mental blocks remain. . . . . These are issues being address in the community [just because u don't see them . . doesn't mean they ain't happening] I don't give a rat's *ss if the KKK marches but i do when poor schools are giving sub par education I don't give a rat's *ss if David duke gets into Augusta but i do when I see a trend of black folx not getting loans who have the same or better credit than their white counter parts I don't give a rat's *ss about the media but i do when a white kids get probation for the EXACT same crime a black kid got 3 yrs for. I don't care if black folx are underrepresented in the p*rn industry but i do if they are underrepresented in the upper echelons of business It take someone about 20 yrs to get to be a CEO [not u DaDa . . but on the avg] 20 yrs ago . . . black folx did not get those jobs leading to this position . . .well not in abundance.. . . I'm just not a wait and see kind of person Rocket River
River, I get it. I just think that as long as we give anyone a leg up based on skin color it only serves to perpetuate the problem. I want a meritocracy, pure and simple. DD
I understand that . . .but my thing is. . . some were given a leg up for 400 yrs . . . . maybe it is someone else's turn . . . or at least try to equal it out some Rocket River
I hear ya, but then you are punishing another group of people that had nothing to do with the whole issue in the first place. Thus discriminating against them. I don't think discrimination in any form is the answer. Simply level the playing field and may the best person win. DD
Out of curiosity, Rocket River, are you endorsing 'affirmative action'? I get your point. I don't quite understand what you think needs to be done to bridge the gap. The mental block, as you put it is a product of both rasicm and reverse racism. By that I mean some of these youths probably believe they are inferior because they are told so, either thru racisim or by hearing from their own families and peers that no one cares about them because they are black.
Excellent points RocketRiver. We all want a level playing field, a meritocracy, etc. But that is IMPOSSIBLE right now. To have a level playing field, we have to undo 400 years of history. Asking for a clean slate won't cut it. People like to say: "Well, I didn't do anything. Why should I give up a job?" But there are millions of jobs whites have right now that would have been filled by African-Americans had there not been governmentally sanctioned slavery and racism for 400 years. Affirmative Action, though flawed, is a modest step toward what we all want: a TRUE meritocracy.
I'm black and I don't hear the inferiority thing. however. I think various programs can be put in place people have FITS about things like welfare etc. but offer no alternatives I prefer Workfare. Life skills. Yes their has to be some interest but some free classes I'm more a proponent of EQUAL EDUCATION but people b*tch about their school money going to other schools If we all get a so called free education . . why is one school better than another? some may scream socialism .. . but i say socialism is good . . . in moderation I think all public schools [K-8] should be about equal you want more. . .you come str8 out the pocket .. not out of public taxes or funds. I think the Magnet program is good. . .it is like declaring a major in high school I think Home Ec needs to make a come back and be upgraded Life Skills classes. . . .School have to teach more than the three R's these days. . . . I know you scream . . it's the parent responsibility my question to you is. . how comforting will it be when some subpar poorly educated kid kills your A+ student? IT TAKES A VILLAGE TO RAISE A CHILD Your child is primarily your responsibility . .. but i have some responsibility too. If you kid is stealing . . as an adult It is my responsibility to tell you . . to HELP you see when u not there [THIS IS OPINION] we so worried about being nosey. . .we forget to be concerned or responsible. I think Education is the key . . . but also some money would be good too. [i.e. welfare] Hard to make an A when u can only think about all the foods that start with A cause u are starving [which I don't understand WHY ANY AMERICAN CHILD GOES HUNGRY ] WE SHOULD HAVE SOME PRIDE ABOUT OUR NATION!!! Rocket River off on a rant
That, my friend, is no 'rant'. That was very impressive. The LifeSkills thing: I haven't heard of any programs, probably because I do not have any children. I totally support it. The attitude that Parents should soley be responsible isn't reasonable in this day and age. Stay home moms are becoming a thing of the past. Broken marriages are common in all races. Schools need to play a larger role in molding our youth.
River, that was a great last post. I grew up in 95% black schools. Very few of my peers got into Universities, because grades didn't matter much, just passing the class. It astounded me at first how the AP classes were comprised of 2/3 whites and Asians, who made up like 5% of the school! It's a little depressing. I know a few suburban blacks and they are much more different than urban blacks. Folks, it all has to do with the parents. Both my parents were shooting themselves up all day, I barely graduated from high school. My friend David's dad works for Shell Gas, he graduated with a 4.1 and went to UCLA on a part-scholarship. I know that doesn't represent eveyone, but parents and enviroment I think are big roles in black society. Even in the 'burbs...you saw the article. 53% of blacks don't live with both parents compared to 15% of whites. That jumps out.
Welfare Affirmative Action Obsession with sports Drug use Children born out of wedlock into single-parent homes Looking for excuses instead of solutions A sense of entitlement instead of motivation How do these factors affect academic achievement? Just curious. btw -- RocketRiver, that little thesis you wrote sounds like something out of the Communist Manifesto.
My argument was more of a rant...but do you think rich families lack the resources to teach their kids? If it isn't a resource problem then it has to be something other than resources. I mean the article claimed black families spend more time with song and play then they do reading to their kids...is that a prejudiced rant in the article? I mean you didn't seem to have much of a problem with it when he said it with no statistical basis. The article also has a guy who talks about how the idea of being smart is being white and even though he didn't say it in the article we know if you are black and act white then it is really bad...am i wrong for bringing it up or is he? Also, not something you argued pgabriel, I don't get this argument that seems to be accepted as true for the emotional damage of slavery which happened over a 130 years ago. I don't carry any emotional damage from what happened to my Scottish and Irish ancestors. And also from legalized segregation...I don't have any relatives who were legally segregated, but maybe you can tell me if you feel any emotional damage from segregation. Maybe there is severe emotional damage from the racism in society today holding blacks down so they can't keep up with whites. I don't see it and black people who I have asked about racist incidents that have happened to them seem to have very few they can name other than how they feel they are being perceived. Maybe it is this passive aggressive racism that still holds black people back from performing well in school. I dunno...I was picked on a hell of a lot through high school for being a skinny white kid, but it didn't seem to effect my performance. Like I said I am ranting...so flame away for my racist prejudiced rants.
Found an intersting article about all of this... Slavery and the Black Family By James Q. Wilson quote: "It is hard to believe that two or three centuries of slave life followed by a century or so of Jim Crow left no lasting impression on African Americans, even though proving such a connection is impossible. But let us for a moment conduct a mental experiment. Given what slaves endured, what can we imagine would be the legacy that their children and grandchildren inherited? We would suppose that boys would grow up without close identification with their fathers, but with some interest in repeating the youthful sexual exploits that transient work and long absences from home made possible. Few would recall many happy experiences associated with a two-parent family. Girls, on the other hand, would grow up thinking that men were irresponsible and that women would have to make their own careers out of whatever opportunities presented themselves. Children would expect to be raised by their mothers or grandmothers and possibly by other women, perhaps distant ones, and would not be surprised if there were no fathers present. They would expect physical, sometimes harsh, discipline. Of course, these predictions must be stated cautiously, for it is obvious that among millions of African Americans there would be a great variety of adaptations; some would struggle to conform to white American marital patterns, others would try to create a unique marital system of their own, and still others would be largely unaffected by anything that happened in the past. But what is striking is that these predictions accord with reality for a large fraction (albeit a minority) of African Americans today. And not only is this true today, but it was true several decades ago when liberal scholars such as John Dollard studied a Mississippi town in the 1930s. "African patterns of sexual control," he wrote, "were abandoned probably because of their futility in the new slave milieu." Not abandoned, he added, because blacks were, as some observers thought, childlike, but abandoned because they did not work. Black men had no access to white women and only limited access to black women, and with the latter the man could offer neither food nor shelter nor protection - the essential requirements of the male social role. The man could dominate but offer little protection to the woman, not only during slavery but for at least a century afterward. And since marriage depends on protection more than domination, it got off to a rough start among African Americans. Patterson has tried to bring this argument up-to-date. African-American men, in his view, sought to embrace the very role that slavery had forced upon them and against which no strong African culture defended them. Sexual predation against black women and violence against black men "would appear to idealize what once dehumanized them," and so "Little Black Sambo became a ‘badass’ dude." And polls suggest that African-American men do not think that marriage will bring them happiness...." and this by the same dude: Why We Don’t Marry
Have you even READ the Communist Manifesto? Do you know what communism is? I'd be willing to bet you don't know Karl Marx from Groucho Marx (QUICK: Go do a google search so you can respond with some Marx analysis!). Also please go back and re-read your post about why blacks aren't as successful -- "obsession with sports," "looking for excuses" and "sense of entitlement" are horrible stereotypes. If you don't realize how ignorant you sound, not knowing the works of Karl Marx is the least of your concerns.
Welfare perhaps in its persent form. Welfare is an all or nothing system. It needs to be transitory Affirmative Action How is this a hinderence? Obsession with sports PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD STOP WATCHING BET AND THINKING THAT IS MOST BLACK FOLX Black folx love sports as much as the next for a while it was one of the few avenues to fame or fortune that was not illegal . . . therefore it is one most taken. Why get a PHD if you wer going to still be relegate to janitor Drug use this is all of america dude Children born out of wedlock into single-parent homes again . .this is prevalent through out the society Looking for excuses instead of solutions So . . . .where do you get this info from What meetings u been to . . . How do you know what black folx are doing. A sense of entitlement instead of motivation No one has a bigger sense of entitlement than WHITE MALES [manifest destiny????] If he did not get the job.. . .it is affirmative Action . . not that he was JUST NOT THE BEST CANDIDATe oooooo it could not POSSIBLY BE a BLACK MAN is more qualified So it HAD to be Affirmative Action I think Affirmative Action gives whites as much an out as it does at condemning black [It is WHITES that have the perception that black are underqualified . . . You can have you perceptions. . . i'll take the job!] Rocket River all affirmative action says is. . . all things being equal . . flip a coin .. don't AUTOMATICALLY go with the person with the same background and LOOK as you
Wow, The thoughtful conversation that we were having degraded into mud slinging of black vs white.....that sucks. DD
I don't know what all of these neighborhoods we are talking about look like but Shaker Heights is somewhat mixed. Some of it is definately affluent (and not very black) and some of it is more like middle class. The high school was supposed to be excellent. I think it is quite possible that someone could afford to live in a better school district like the ones spoken about here and still not have every convenience of affluence at their disposal. The point is that the economic gap may not really be closed in these schools and some of this discussion assumes that economics is no longer a factor in these cases. Of course, I don't think economics is the only issue in any case. As for the extent to which the family dynamics might effect the situation, I can believe that a higher percentage of black children grow up in single parent homes. But the statistics are rapidly changing: white people are catching up. Maybe in the next ten years or so we can revisit the question and see how much it really hurts/helps children to live in a home with a single parent.
Robbie, Seriously, The point about your Scottish Irish ancestors is ridiculous. The point of Blacks being emotionally scarred by slavery, isn't just about the mistreatment of ancestors, for most blacks the only history we have is we were slaves and now we are free. We have been stripped of our culture, and history. Case in point, you say your Scottish Irish history, well I can tell you that most blacks in this country, have no idea what part of Africa our ancestors came from. You can be proud of your ancestors before they came to America, if not your particular family, at least the area of the world. I have no idea where my ancestors are from, what their clan was, etc. that's the difference. And my response to your rant was it had nothing to do with article because you immediately went into the people having kids out of wed lock argument, and taking responsibility, but at least you admit it was a racist rant, that had nothing to do with the article.
What research have you done into this Pgabrial? Because, I can tell you that most of us know that we come from Europe, but have zero idea about our ancestors real identity. Is it really important to understand where your ancestors come from? Does it give anyone a better understanding of how to succeed today? I really don't understand the whole "where we came from" argument. It seems like it would be neat knowing where we all came from, but highly irrelevent to our current situation. Racism exists, no doubt about it, it is simply ignorance. How else can you explain people having preconceived notions about someone based completely on the color of someone's skin. Ridiculous. However, it is unfair to have any laws that discriminate against any person based upon skin color. How can you hinder the 18 year old white kid because 138 years ago there were slaves in this country? It is simply transferring discrimination to another section of the populace, and discrimination in any form is wrong. DD
DaDakota, Thanks for your commentary, But I was responding to a specific point, Robbie stated he was Irish Scottish, so we can both assume he knows where his ancestors come from. We are talking about the emotional scars of slavery, not affirmative action, or anything else, read the whole post next time.
