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What if Bush wasn't lying and it was faulty intel?

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by FranchiseBlade, Jun 4, 2003.

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  1. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    That's probably the worst possible attitude to bring to: War, Peace, Nation building, intelligence, and pretty much everything.
     
    #21 SamFisher, Jun 5, 2003
  2. DaDakota

    DaDakota Balance wins
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    Sam,.

    Just being pragmatic.

    The war is over, Iraq is better off, the world is more stable.

    Sounds good to me.....and looks like most of the investors agree as well.

    DD
     
    #22 DaDakota, Jun 5, 2003
  3. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    This isn't a sitcom, things don't wrap up in thirty minutes.

    Remember how pumped everyone was after Gulf War I?

    Well, that set off a chain of events that led to the 9-11 attacks, so keep in mind that things don't end when a statue gets pulled down and they go to commercial.
     
    #23 SamFisher, Jun 5, 2003
  4. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    you can hope for the worst..i'll hope for the best.

    still doesn't change my opinion that action solves more problems than inaction.
     
    #24 MadMax, Jun 5, 2003
  5. DaDakota

    DaDakota Balance wins
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    Sam,

    So, by your logic, we should go back to isolationism and let the world work out their own problems, right?

    We tried that 2 times last century and it got us into 2 huge world wars.

    It is better to have a local war won quicly then a world war where millions die.

    The war was right and just and we won, most of us are happy about that.

    DD
     
    #25 DaDakota, Jun 5, 2003
  6. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    hope is not a plan, as the bush admin is finding out the hard way with regard to nationbuilding.
     
    #26 SamFisher, Jun 5, 2003
  7. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    No. I don't know how you made that logical leap about isolationism but I certainly didn't

    But it's not "us" being happy about the war being won that I'm worried about.
     
    #27 SamFisher, Jun 5, 2003
  8. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    stop twisting it...hope wasn't the plan...a plan (other than sitting on our thumbs and hoping for the best) was already executed. someone is doing something. finally.

    meanwhile, there's more progress towards peace in israel and the west bank than there has been in decades.

    action is better than inaction.
     
    #28 MadMax, Jun 5, 2003
  9. DaDakota

    DaDakota Balance wins
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    Action speaks louder than words.

    I am glad we have a President in place who is willing to make the tough choices and act.

    Iraq is better off, check back in 10 years and see if the Middle East is not more stable.

    DD
     
    #29 DaDakota, Jun 5, 2003
  10. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    You're betting on the long term stability of the mideast? I'll take that bet, and I'll sell you some Houston Oiler season tickets as well, Mezzanine Level!
     
    #30 SamFisher, Jun 5, 2003
  11. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    i think he said MORE stable
     
    #31 MadMax, Jun 5, 2003
  12. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    I know, I'll take that bet.
     
    #32 SamFisher, Jun 5, 2003
  13. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    isn't it arguably already more stable???

    a dictator who oppressed his people and attacked his neighbors is out of power...

    israeli and palestinian officials are talking about REAL peace for the first time in a long time....israel seems to be bowing towards the idea of a palestinian state...the palestinian officials are working towards a resolution of a cease-fire between Hamas and Israel.

    the other dictators in the region understand that the US is damn serious when they say they don't want these countries acting as rogue states, developing WMD and the like.

    i'd say it's already considerably more stable....is it as stable as wyoming? no. but in relative terms, progress is being made.
     
    #33 MadMax, Jun 5, 2003
  14. DaDakota

    DaDakota Balance wins
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    MadMax,

    Well said, and exactly my point.

    The ME is already moving to a more stabilized format, and it is a direct consequence of our taking out a hostile regime.

    I don't understand how people can not see the obvious.

    DD
     
    #34 DaDakota, Jun 5, 2003
  15. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    The softening of the likudniks is encouraging,

    but I think the anarchy of Iraq is considerably less stable.

    And if every despotic regime has to go through a period of anarchy first, well, we don't have enough troops, bullets or tanks (or tax revenue) to keep order in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria, Iran, etc.
     
    #35 SamFisher, Jun 5, 2003
  16. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    Go tell a baghdadi how stable their city is.

    (and don't come back with, "go tell an ex iraqi political prisoner" blah blah blah, yes, saddam was horrible, I agree and it's good that he's gone, I'm simply assessing the current state of affairs)
     
    #36 SamFisher, Jun 5, 2003
  17. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Member
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    I didn't say we should ignore ours and accept the
    We have the finest intelligence capabilities in the world, flawed as they are. No thanks.
    [/B][/QUOTE]

    I didn't say we should ignore ours and accept the others instead.

    We can still use ours, but maybe by working through a large organization with the UN and using our intel in conjunction with theirs it will be more accurate. If the justification for using military first strike as the course of action in Iraqi regime change was WMD, then the justification for that course of action may not have been justified. Better not to make the same mistakes next time.
    The policy may have been regime change, but the action isn't always invasion. The policy in Cuba has been regime change, and is till regime change. The number one reason give for the course of action we took was a threat to the U.S. by WMD.

    Don't get me wrong I'm glad that Saddam's gone. Perhaps if the administration had simply said Saddam is a bad guy we need to go in and take him out because of that, it would be different.
    Once a program was found and discovered Saddam may have well been removed, and with greater world cooperation. There might now be a larger force in Iraq, that would have been sufficient to protect hospitals, museums, schools etc.

    Who says the inspectors had to leave? Who said the course wouldn't have been removal of Saddam by force then?
    The cooperation of the U.S. with other nations and UN at large might have made the process go smoother.

    The UN is full of national govts. Working with them, as well as the inspectors may have corrected at least some of the 'mistakes' made by out intel.
     
    #37 FranchiseBlade, Jun 5, 2003
  18. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Member
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    How is it more stable? Has terrorism in the region decreased sense the invasion? Have other dictatorships become democracies? Does Iraq itself have more jobs now? Do the Iraqis have a greater access to electricity, sanitation, etc?

    The best thing is that they aren't in total danger of oppression. In that way Iraq is more stable, but the region doesn't seem more stable based on the invasion.

    I believe the most stabilizing factor so far in the ME has been the election of a Palestinian Prime Minister, so that someone other than ARafat can be involved in the peace process.
     
    #38 FranchiseBlade, Jun 5, 2003
  19. MacBeth

    MacBeth Member

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    eh? How did America's isolationism/non-isolationism start either war? It lead to us getting involved in the second one later than we would have, had no effect on the first, and lead to neither. We had virtually no effect on the 1st one being started, and our effect on the second was the aftermath of our pulling financial support for Stresseeman's govt. paying off war reparations after the Stcok Market crash...what am I missing?

    You aren't seriously of the opinion that when left to it's own devices the rest of the wordl is like an irresponsible child, and we are the responsible parent, are you?

    If so...explain Viet Nam. Or our Civil War.

    Not to mention the incredible arrogance of that kind of attitude.
     
    #39 MacBeth, Jun 5, 2003
  20. JohnnyBlaze

    JohnnyBlaze Member

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    I beg to differ, The world is better off but at this moment most iraqi's (sp?) are not better off. However, in the future, probably.
     
    #40 JohnnyBlaze, Jun 5, 2003
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