Hakeem ranked lower than Shaq,Wilt, Russell and Kareem

Russell I mean of course

 

I would just like to say - Bill made his team HOFers. You know the one constant during Bill Russell's 11 rings - 12 finals appearances...it was Bill Russell. His whole playing style was centred around making his teammates effective, and obviously they'll look like HOFers when they're on Bill's team.

His stats might not eye-popping, but everyone around the league knew he was the best thus the 5 MVPs he racked up. For comparison the people that beat him in the MVP race - Wilt snagged 4, and the Big O took 1.

People only seem to care about stats. Basketball is a team sport, there is only one ball. Bill is the GOAT. He may not be the most "skilled" or athletic, but he is a basketball genius. The game is about winning! who cares if you put up 1000 points, if you don't win it don't mean squat.

Bill made his team great, while I think Wilt is a beast, he didn't know how to play the team game well enough. Larry legend is a good example of a great teammate with what he did to that celtics squad in his rookie year. Hakeem is one of the most complete players I've seen - no real deficiencies, but he didn't have Russell-like dominance. In a game about winning, you have to put the most accomplished basketball player above Hakeem - even though Hakeem is an absolute beast!

 

How come people overlook the fact that Bill Russell never shot over 50% as a center, or had the ft shooting of Dwight, and never averaged more than 20 PPG (while Wilt was dominating)? But, but 11 rings though!!

Or the 1995 finals, 1994 finals... Um.... or the 1986 playoffs (albeit KAJ past his prime, but Hakeem was a 2nd year player IIRC, and was not near his peak). I also think it is relevant that Hakeem made HOF's look like scrubs.

I have yet to see another center play the PnR anywhere as close as effectively as Hakeem. "He could guard guards" - Kenny Smith. Look at this recovery time.

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Because he was the best. Here's a quote from Jerry West: "If I had a choice of any basketball player in the league, my No.1 choice has to be Bill Russell. Bill Russell never ceases to amaze me."

Phil Jackson would take Bill over MJ.

Bill Russell helped make my dream a better dream because when you play with the best, you know you have to play your best.”
--Wilt Chamberlain

“Russell single-handedly revolutionized this game simply because he made defense so important.”
--Red Auerbach, 1964

 

Sorry got to throw in this last quote from the man himself, that really sums up the disrespect some have been giving him (while it should be noted others have given him appropriate respect):

In response to LBJ leaving Russell off his Mount Rushmore (Bird, MJ, Magic, Big O):

"Hey, thank you for leaving me off your Mount Rushmore. I’m glad you did. Basketball is a team game, it’s not for individual honors. I won back-to-back state championships in high school, back-to-back NCAA championships in college. I won an NBA championship my first year in the league, an NBA championship in my last year, and nine in between. That, Mr. James, is etched in stone."

Basketball is a team sport. Bill always wins, he is basketball's GOAT.

 

pg : Stockton $2
sg : Jordan $5
sf : Pippen $1
pf : Garnett $1
c : Olajuwon $1

Keep the change

 

The statement shows the ridiculousness of the comment. First you say it's a team game. Then you say Bill (the individual) is the greatest.

No... Bill's team was the greatest.

Robert Horry isn't anywhere close to the greatest PF. Not even a HOFer. But he was a very important part of so so many championship teams. Imagine if Horry had said something like Bill said about Mt Rushmore. He'd be laughed out if the building.

One can separate Bill the player as an individual and Bill the teammate.

Bills greatest attributes are that he revolutionized defense - yes.... True, and was such a good teammate while being a great player. All great things.... But also speaks to him as an individual player.

 

What the quote is meant to say is that you need to be a team-orientated player to win. Wilt was too focused on stat-stuffing and a locker-room problem that he got traded twice (once he asked for it).

He's the greatest, because he knows how to make a team effective. You think it was a coincidence he won back-to-back championships in high school and college and then 11 in the NBA.

He knew what he needed to do to win. That's why he is the GOAT.

Jordan came into the league and dropped a bunch of points, but he didn't know how to make a team effective until later.

So the comment says it's a team game, the best is who makes the team the best, therefore Bill is the GOAT.

These aren't computers, these are people with emotions and whatever, despite their talent there is a reason it sometimes doesn't translate to wins.

 

Ah, the Russell debate. Big Bill is one of my favorite players and debating him versus MJ or Hakeem is usually good.

I'll touch base on this another time, got to call it a night.

 

PF Tim Duncan $3
SF Larry Bird $4
C Hakeem Olajuwon $1
SG Michael Jordan $5
PG John Stockton $2

 

Sorry let me just directly address your point, I sort of did it in a round about way. I understand and think you make a good point, but Horry was never the driving force of the team, the leader or the engine etc.

I think Wilt is the Greatest individual talent to play the game, but Russell is the GOAT basketball player. The aim of the game is to win and Russell will do whatever it takes to do that, even though Wilt is more talented individually, he didn't have the mental genius of Russell to win consistently.

As basketball is a team sport, I think the GOAT should be the player that knows how to win and will make any team a championship squad from the get go (he had unbelievable longevity doing it too). Bill is that, whereas Wilt, MJ etc. are not - they learnt later, but Russell was doing it his whole career.

I hope that clears my opinion up a bit.

 

I am trying to compare them. What I am not trying to do is make a direct comparison (for example, which player would win in a 1v1). Instead, I am comparing them by looking at how they played against the competition of their time.

I wasn't trying to say that either Wilt or Russell were better shot blockers than Hakeem. Just using shot blocking as one example of how the rules of the game and stats have drastically changed over time which makes it very difficult to compare players that played in different generations.

I am not arguing that the NBA as a whole was a weaker, less popular league than it is now. I am not arguing that basketball wasn't as popular, there weren't as many players and definitely not as many great players.

What I am arguing is that if the rules, pace and such weak defenders were what enabled Wilt to put up such gaudy numbers instead of his own ability, then why weren't more players of the time putting up those same gaudy numbers?

If that was the whole reason why, then when you looked at the list of the most points scored by a single player in a single game, wouldn't that list be dominated by players from that era when the pace was so fast that they could get so many shots and the defense so bad that they couldn't stop anyone? Wouldn't it be almost entirely players from that era? But it isn't. The list is dominated by Wilt- like I said, 15 out of the top 21 most points scored in a game including 4 out of the top 5. To say that the competition is so weak is a disservice to Mikan, Robertson, Baylor, West etc.... Even though there weren't as many great players, there were some other great players in that era of faster pace and weaker competition. But even those other great players come no where close to what Wilt did. And Wilt did it against the best competition of the day, averaging more than 28 points and more than 28 rebounds against Bill Russell (averaging more points and more rebounds than Russell in their meetings.)

And to say that the defense only played 1 on 1 which allowed Wilt to just 'jump over smaller guys' isn't true either. After his rookie season, Wilt thought about retiring. He said that he was tired of being double and triple teamed and tired of teams intentionally committing hard fouls against him to send him to the free throw line, where everyone knew he was awful. Sounds like the defenses knew he was dominant and did whatever they could to try to stop it.

Interesting point about Yao. BTW, I love Yao Ming. I really wish his career was longer and think that he had the potential to be good enough to be included in this list as well.

However, I do think there is a big difference between what you mentioned with Yao and Wilt. Those numbers that you quoted from Yao were in an inferior league. He was putting up those gaudy numbers while knowing there were better players in another league. When Wilt was playing, basketball wasn't nearly the same international sport that it is now. The league was weaker than it is now, sure, but he was playing in the best possible league that he could against the best possible players that he could. There was literally no where else in the World he could go to challenge himself more.

I'm not saying he didn't. I don't know. Could he have? Sure, that's a possibility. And if he did, then that is very unfortunate. At the same time, making the assumption that he did because he lifted weights and hung out with bodybuilders is a stretch.

The other players were playing in that same era with the same rules and the same lack of defense. Yet no one comes close to the kinds of numbers that he has- the 71 NBA records that he holds.

Then you say that he was the 'only top 5 center in that era' but that he 'wasn't the most impactful player in his own era' and name another center? Which, also, kind of hurts the weaker competition argument as well.


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I am not saying anything bad against Russell. I think he was an amazing player, one of the best of all time. But his offense was not even close to Wilt's. While Russell was a good rebounder, he was not even close to the rebounder that Wilt was. They were both good shot-blockers, so it is hard to know who is better.

And again, in the 141 games that they played against each other, Wilt had more points and more rebounds than Russell. He scored more than 50 points on Russell (one of the best defenders of all time) seven times.

I agree that Dream didn't have a great supporting cast for most of his career. I also don't think that Wilt did.

From what I have read and know about Wilt, it also seems like Hakeem is a much more likeable person. And, as a Rockets fan, Hakeem is easily my favorite player.



They were both amazing. They both dominated in different ways. If you are trying to say who is the best Center of all time, I don;t think you could go wrong either way.

But when I look at the stats of what Wilt did, in my very very very humble opinion, it just sure appears like Wilt dominated the NBA during his prime more than anyone else ever has.

 

Wilt criminally underrated there.

My team:
PG - Magic
SG - Clyde
SF - Durant
PF - Timmy
C - Wilt

 

Wilt was an incredibly gifted and amazing player. But he was a sta-padding, selfish, ballhogging blackhole for most of his seasons in the 60's.

Defensively he was amazing.....I really don't know who to choose between the dream and him on D....Offensively, when Wilt was winning rings, he was a passer(and a great one), not much of a scorer. Like a NOAH but a richer version. He was an anchor and a passer out of the high post. Hakeem was a better scorer than a winning, non-blackhole/statpadding Chamberlain.
I'd take Hakeem honestly.

Russell......I'd take Hakeem over him too.....Arguably better on both ends...

Hakeem has no case over Shaq other than being a much better defender. Shaq was much better on offense but he won more, and had the same amount of MVP's...Shaq > Hakeem
He has no case over KAJ. Just none folks. Lol sorry.

Overrall:
1. KAJ
2.Shaq
3.Hakeem
4.Wilt
5.Russell

 

Total silence...
<img src="http://livingincinema.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/total-silence.jpg">

 

Magic
Jordan
Pippen
Duncan
Olajuwon

Pippen, Duncan and Dream locking **** down on defense. 3 post up threats, all 5 guys can run the floor.

 

What a load of bull****.

1 Kareem
2 Russell
3 Hakeem
4 Wilt
5 Shaq

Shaq was physically dominate but he didn't have the scoring ability Hakeem did and when Shaq started winning the pool of quality big men shrank big time.

There is no way that anyone can put Shaq ahead of Hakeem without being sucked into the big market kool aid.

 

eh? Shaq was a more effective offensive player than Hakeem. Similar to the whole Kobe vs Lebron, the ability to lay it up beats all the fluency in the world.

 

Using one from each position I'd take Isiah, Jordan, Lebron, Garnett, Olajowon.

Using the 15 my way I'd take Lebron, Jordan, Pippen, Duncan, Olajuwon.

 

Mchale is the coach imagine a lineup of Stockton, Jordan, Durant, Nowitzki and Hakeem coached by Mchale...,.:grin: