Exactly. He wouldn't exactly be starting from scratch over here. The ideal scenario would be to have LB come here, Mike Woodson NOT get the Toronto job (sorry Mike, I'm being selfish), take an assistant position w/LB as he has already said he would, and then groom him to take over when LB inevitably leaves in 4 years. Woodson, a former Rocket, would be ready by then if not sooner. Former Rocket as coach = good karma
Thanks Sage - I've been waiting for this for days. Finally, a response regarding why JVG would be a good choice. But, that being said, what makes you say he can run an offense? Given the supposed weapons on the Rockets, 80-78 wins won't make people happy... I'm definitely cooling on the Larry Brown for coach idea...
they will if they wins championships... i for one love van gundy as an anouncer, but as a coach he seems to be married to the isolation...and that is something that steve and cat will undoubtably take advantage of even before the ink on van gundy's contract dries...80-78 wins may get you to the top of the east as detroit displayed....but this is DA WEST.... dunleavy has coached and had success in the west, he knows the drill and will be here for the long haul...
Come on, when Don Nelson coached the Knicks they were a pretty sorry offensive bunch. Look at what Nellies doing now with different players.
I'm glad folks like yourself are trying to be objective. Hero-worship is not something I ascribe to, and I am afraid that given his visibility, Coach Brown is becoming the object of hero-worship here in Houston. Again, I have my biases, but I thought it impt that all Rockets fans (some who may not know the intangibles of Jeff Van Gundy) better understand the caliber of the other candidates we are interviewing. As to your question about Jeff Van Gundy running a respectable offense, I need only point out one thing... wins. Some people may lambaste me for oversimplification, but, in the end, it's all about wins. And wins is a function of not how many points you score, rather, making sure you score more than your opponent. So what does this mean??? Well, let's start here. From a macro POV, I think we've all been spoiled by the high-output scoring of the Western conference. Interestingly, inasmuch as teams like Sacramento and Dallas would want us to believe that they can consistently "shoot" their opponents to death, in reality, it's still the grind-it-out halfcourt game that consistently wins in the playoffs. In fact, I know of NO team, in recent memory, that ascribed to the Nellie or Adelman run-and-gun that HAS won a championship. Why do I mention this? b/c offensive respectability is merely a matter of perspective. The Lakers could NEVER put out the same kind of offensive output over Sactown... yet one has 3 rings, the other has none. We could debate all day as to why the Lakers are the superior team, but IMHO, it's all about which system triumphs over the other. Lakers, for all the talk of the triangle offense, is, at its core, a center driven, half-court set game. Whenever the game gets out of hand, they have schemas ready for Shaq... the game slows down, and they get back in it. Though the Lakers (much like our Rox) have the potential to put up 100+ point nights, fact is, 85-90 pts per game can be highly respectable... esp if it gets us over 50+ wins and a ring. That said, let's flash forward to Jeff Van Gundy. For those of you who think Van Gundy is simply your basketball equivalent of a defensive coordinator, think again. What are some of the things that Van Gundy understands very well. 1. Van Gundy understands NBA playbook schemas very well. 2. He also understands the "rules" of the NBA, the changes in the rules, and their impact upon the game very well. 3. He also understands how to utilize a center and its changing role w/ respect to changing rules 4. He understands defense very well. The first three points speak to how better Van Gundy will be in "tuning" and optimizing our team's offense to get better productivity. Van Gundy is ALL about playing to people's strengths. On the Knicks, Van Gundy managed to make the most of an aging Ewing who was well past his prime. Good spacing, good passing, and clean passes into the post... everything was optimized and scripted from the moment the point guard brought the ball upcourt. Despite all the talk of getting Yao more involved. Fact is, our entry feeds to the post and spacing were oftentimes horrendous. Moreover, there were severe timing issues with cutters. But imagine an offense here in Houston, where there'd be absolutely NO delay btw the post entry pass and Yao's post move! Imagine what kind of pressure that would put on opposing teams scrambling to double team! Van Gundy somehow managed to make Ewing a force, until a ruptured achilles sidelined him in the playoff series against Indiana. With Yao, I am willing to bet my hat that Van Gundy will get every ounce of his potential out from him. Some people may not want to hear this, or watch this kind of bball, but under Van Gundy, expect an offensive schema that is more systematic... a.la the Lakers of the 80s, the Knicks of the late 90s, or, dare I say, like Utah over the past two decades. But here's the interesting kicker. On the Knicks, Van Gundy NEVER had a star point guard. He made do with a platoon of average to above-average workman leaders who he infused with his playbook. Here, in Houston, we have Steve Francis.... a workman AND a talent. So long as Francis maintains a positive attitude, ALL I SEE IS EVEN MORE UPSIDE SQUEEZED OUT OF FRANCIS. Francis and Yao will make each other look even better and Van Gundy has the brains to "optimize" each of their games. The question mark in my mind is whether the Rocket team can and will respond to Jeff and conversely, whether Jeff has the "authority" to galvanize this team into one that is out to win with that "winner's swagger." When I look at the rest of team, I honestly believe, from all that I've read and seen of the Rockets, that there are many good "young" workmen who will be receptive to Van Gundy. Cato, Nachbar, Moochie, MoTaylor...should all respond well under Van Gundy's tutelage. The ones I believe to be lazier players like EG, I have questions about. Van Gundy wants winners and players who have the hunger to win. w/o that passion, you are off the team. Already, I can see a great rapport and lovefest developing between Van Gundy and Mobley... So here's another observation worth considering Rocket104. There's a great myth developing w/in the NBA, and it has to do with the above mentioned "run-and-gun" style offenses... esp in the West. Although higher scoring games make for more entertaining bball, to date, history has not vindicated the run-and-gun style to be a championship worthy gameplan. Yet fans and young coaches alike seem enamored by it. IMHO, if there were ever a time to be contrarian, it's NOW... esp if being contrarian means going back to a winning system with two anchors in a 1 and a 5. Lastly, Van Gundy will create a very balanced team for Houston. If there is any bias, then the bias would be for stronger defense. But that doesn't mean our offense is going the way of the Detroit Pistons. Think about it. With a talent-deprived Knick team, he got enough points to get the wins. With a talent-heavy Rocket roster, you would think that we'd be able to score more, just on the premise of having more talent. But the key is still winning. So long as we score enough to get the wins, CONSISTENTLY, who cares how much we score? theSAGE
Great post! I thought you were in D.C. Oh well! Man! Now I like JVG too.............................. How old is JVG?
Last Points on JVG, and I'll Shut Up Now Inasmuch as resumes and win/loss stats are impt, in the end, it's all about the individual. And with coaching, there are many intangibles about Jeff Van Gundy that aren't often talked about but I think are a good "cultural" fit with the Houston Rockets. For example: 1. JVG is a disciplinarian but a humble man too (he takes pride in driving a Honda, he's not the flamboyant type, and he's always praising people first over tooting his own horn.) Humility is one thing I've always admired about RudyT, and JVG, in this respect, is no different. 2. JVG demands 110% from his players, night-in, night-out and sets the right example by working equally as hard. One good example sets the standard for other good examples and JVG will bring some much needed passion and work ethic. 3. JVG, IMHO, will get along with Yao VERY WELL. Humility, a desire to excel, a desire to win, and a team/family attitude... it's like a match made in heaven. Brown, on the other hand, seems to relish igniting the energies of squabbling children. 4. JVG stands by his players much like RudyT does too. If ever there is "internal strife", JVG makes a point of keeping things internal and resolving things privately (as opposed to talking through the press and further igniting flames). 5. JVG understands how to motivate his players in a positive way and getting players to "buy" into his system of unselfish play. 6. *VERY IMPT*Contrary to what many of you may think, Van Gundy IS a very dedicated coach. After he got stuck with Nellie's abandoned team, he still managed to coach the Knicks to a respectable record AND a respectable showing in the playoffs. For those who still remember those days, Van Gundy's head was ON THE CHOP BLOCK. He could've easily quit/resigned/screamed at the press. It was a given that Van Gundy would get fired, but instead of caving, he willed his team on to overachieve. That, my friends, is leadership. To me, it's a no brainer who the top candidate should be. But alas, I'm neither CD nor LA. Les and Carroll both want to win... so does JVG. JVG demands that the organization have a sincere interest in winning. When the Knicks organization lost that compass, JVG saw a leaky boat. The Rocket organization is aeons ahead of many other NBA franchises in terms of the will to win. And JVG knows that, and he belongs here... theSAGE
GREAT CONCLUSION! But didn't he quit like in the middle of the season with the Knicks? He just quit? You make him sound great......... Man. It's gonna be tough for Les to choose a coach. SO HOW OLD IS HE?!?
Thank you, SLA. Last check, I think Van Gundy is 39 and pushing 40. Plenty of gas left in the tank. On a separate note, I just read an interesting thread earlier today about "the Philly fan's take on Brown." It's an interesting take on the disappointed Philly fans perspective on Brown. theSAGE
Because he is a great coach. He quit 19 games in because he was tired of management, he was very close with Patrick, and he felt the Knicks betrayed Patrick (which they did). If you went from Ewing--->Rice, Knight--->Houston 100m, Eisley, Anderson, Knight in 2 years, you would be fed up too.
Saturday, December 8, 2001 Van Gundy's resignation a surprise -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- By Dr. Jack Ramsay Special to ESPN.com I was very surprised to hear Jeff Van Gundy had resigned as the head coach of the Knicks. Off to a slow start, Van Gundy carries the weight of his team on his shoulders, but the Knicks had regrouped well since Marcus Camby's return. I have a high regard for Van Gundy's coaching ability -- he's one of the top coaches in the NBA. He takes losing very hard and wears his emotions on his sleeve -- you never have to question what he's thinking or where he's coming from. He wants his team to play a particular style and with a lot of intensity. He may not have thought that was happening with this group. An excellent coach, he could return to the NBA when he's ready. There are a lot of teams who would like his services. If you're looking for a perfect talent for an NBA team, the Knicks don't have it and haven't had it for a number of years. But Van Gundy has patched them together and made the very best of what he had to work with. The players hold Van Gundy in high regard. In fact, I've never heard one of his players criticize him -- they've always spoken very highly of him. I'm not sure there isn't more to this than just the day-to-day toll that affects every coach. Jeff is a perfectionist and I don't think he'd resign unless there was some additional pressure. He may have felt he wasn't getting the support or cooperation from management. An excellent coach, he could return to the NBA when he's ready. There are a lot of teams who would like his services. I don't know it would be this year but, should he chose to return in the future, I'm sure he could. In the past, Jeff has talked about leaving the NBA and getting back to college coaching -- possibly a Division II school. He loves coaching and is a great teacher. I'm sure he'll get back to coaching at some level in the not too distant future. As for the Knicks, it looks like Don Chaney will be the guy to step in and possibly take over for the rest of the season. We'll see what happens from there.
The fact that Van Gundy lost two friends in the World Trade Center attacks that year may of had a lot to do with him quitting so he could spend time with his family.
Sage, Great posts - you did the best job of explaining JVG's case than any other I've heard. Really solid information, nice work.
Thank you, sTWO. I'm glad you started this thread. In fact, though I've been visiting the boards regularly of late, I was surprised in not finding more threads on Jeff Van Gundy. But I'm totally with you in the "Vote JVG" camp. I hope you're reading this Les!!!!! theSAGE
JVG pointed out that two three-FTs awarded to Mav were mistakes. That was pretty accurate and implies he is quite devoted to games. I like his personalities, I like Larry Brown's too. They are emotional, they yell, they argue with refs. RT turned too nice at the end.
Thanks Sage - wonderful points and nicely thought out (I especially like the last point you made regarding his perseverence). While I realize that winning is more important than scoring, the reason I consider it a concern is that the upcoming year is an important period in the Rockets' history. It's doubtful they'll immediately win the championship next year, so they need to be enjoyable to watch if they are to keep the fan base growing in the city/country/world. They have a chance to become the most popular team on the planet! Yes, winning cures all wounds, but I think a fun start in a new building with a solid core of Franchise and Yao would produce a lot of fans who will stick around when the season goes past the 25-game point and the Rox are sitting in the middle of the playoff hunt and fans usually become fickle and focus on football/baseball/etc. Years down the road, this could be key. This situation just reminds me a lot of how the Astros blew an opportunity to build a loyal fan base by being terrible in 2000 when they moved to Enron Field. All the hype was lost because they sucked. Okay, you've got me believing more in JVG, but I still think offense will be an issue in the long run, as the league now is slightly different from when he left. Yes, scoring isn't up that dramatically, but it seems that it's a bit more fluid than it used to be and getting better. Whether that is due to an influx of foreign talent or better players/coaching or what, it just seems like it's been more fun to watch in the past two years than it was in the late '90's. Watching the playoffs right now, I can't help but think that we'll need to have two-three legitimate scoring threats who aren't afraid to shoot. If the new coach, whoever he is, can develop that, scoring won't be a problem.
Coach Can't Fix Sick Knicks Jeff Van Gundy had a talent for coaching. He just didn't have any talent. By Hugo Lindgren Posted Monday, December 10, 2001, at 12:49 PM PT Watching Jeff Van Gundy coach the Knicks over the last six years was like watching a defenseless boxer get pummeled in the late rounds. Every errant pass was another keen one in the gut, every missed defensive assignment a brain-throttling blow. You wished a ref would step in and halt the carnage. The victories, when they came, seemed to offer no salve, no relief. So thank God Van Gundy threw in the towel last Friday and resigned. Van Gundy has been an excellent coach, as savvy and effective as any in the league. He was the NBA's last true believer in coaching, in the idea that preparation and practice could compensate for inferior talent. And over the years, it was this faith that wore him down, that gave him the droopy face and the sunken eyes. Never once in the Van Gundy era did the Knicks have the talent to match up with the elite teams in the league. When Patrick Ewing was playing for them, there was that little Michael Jordan roadblock. When Jordan was on the way out, management made a critical bet. They signed Allan Houston and designated him as their post-Ewing savior, their Jordan. Houston has struggled to pay back their confidence ever since. Latrell Sprewell, brought in for reinforcement, added some pep. But neither he nor Houston has the skills to carry the Knicks. So it was left to Van Gundy to carry the Knicks, and he actually thought he could do it. This is why he suffered. Wins, in his view, were bought with hard work. If a string of 15-hour days culminated in an overtime loss to Sacramento, he'd go to 16-hour days to prepare for lowly Golden State. It made no difference who the opponent was or what point in the season it was—a team with insufficient talent could never afford to let up. Every practice was critical, every game do-or-die. Van Gundy's obsessive approach paid off in lots of ways, particularly in the postseason, as the Knicks routinely went deeper into the playoffs than they should have (last year's loss to Toronto being a notable exception). Their run to the finals three years ago, as the eighth seed in the East, was one of the most extraordinary underdog performances in NBA history. And with certain players, like Kurt Thomas, Van Gundy's relentless style clearly paid dividends. Before coming to the Knicks, Thomas was a wayward, injury-prone underachiever. Over the last three seasons, he became a reliable inside force and the Knicks' most consistent player. He faithfully supplies the dozen points and 10 boards a night they need from him. The problem is that a team full of Kurt Thomases, which is what the post-Ewing Knicks have morphed into, will never win a championship. The Knicks lack two essential skills—power in the middle and quickness in the backcourt. Their main assets are Houston and Sprewell, Thomas, and, from time to time, Marcus Camby. The rest of the squad could have been plucked from the waiver wire. Is it any wonder Van Gundy opted out of putting this team on the floor 60 more times? In fact, in the short run, the Knicks will probably play better without him. At the start of this season, Van Gundy's relentless pressure, applied day in and day out for six years, simply wore down this group; they could no longer overachieve. Perhaps they'll fare better with the milder Don Chaney at the helm. Van Gundy, meanwhile, will follow the path of his arch-nemesis Phil Jackson—an extended mellow-out period, possibly conducted in Montana, followed by a new job with a team that has the goods in place to win it all. When Jackson was plotting his comeback, he could have had any job in the league, including Van Gundy's. But he brushed them all off until the Lakers called, with Shaq and Kobe. That's the kind of situation—i.e., superstars already in place—that Van Gundy should look for. Go some place where you'll be able to win right away—and look back and laugh about how you once believed in the perfectibility of Allan Houston.
van exel was 2 ft inside the 3pt line.....him and the czar both commented on that, you cant not comment on something that blatenly obvious. but i think its in this order. Brown, Van Gundy, Dunleavy thats how les will think of it
There is a reason that Larry Brown is the national team coach currently. There was also a reason that Rudy T was the national team coach. They are the best in the business. Hopefully we can continue to enjoy quality coaching... Bring on Larry Brown.
