Well, I don't agree with all of TJ's arguments, I was responding to the point about players and coaches not being represented the same on the field as in the coaching. Anyways, I still don't see proof that there is rampant racism. I know this is your belief about it, but if it's true, how come so many NBA and college basketball coaches are black? Are there just more racists in football?
Frickin' Notre Dame, the biggest football school of all, has a black head coach for cryin' out loud! How bad could it be?
I don't know. Maybe there are more racists in football or maybe it's guarded by the good ole boys more so than other sports because football is the cash cow. Football programs are a lot of times the biggest thing going with a school or even an entire city/state. It's probably a lot of things. In pro leagues people are more accountable for their decisions than in college where factors other than just winning are taken into account. Pro teams aren't located in small towns or in areas like Alabama, Mississippi, South Carolina, etc. where racism has historically been the worst. Pro players have unions and recourse with free agency if they feel management is bigotted while college players are basically cattle with little recourse other than to transfer and lose eligibility. I'd be interested to see what positions current head coaches played. If there a lot of former quarterbacks then we know blacks have been denied that position in the past so that would account for some of it. There's been no position in baseball and basketball where any race has been denied an opportunity similarly. It might just be as simple college basketball having had a prominent minority figure like John Thompson who was very successful. There hasn't been that one dominant black coach in football (not that it should matter) that might sway otherwise uninterested athletic directors to hire a minority. Maybe Ty Willingham will be the guy. It might just be the culture of college football. I can tell you what it isn't though and it's not a skill set thing.
Exactly, if everything was fine it wouldn't have been such a big media event. Tyrone Willingham's hire is a sign of progress, but it isn't a sign of the issue being solved. Just like the black quarterbacks, it was a big media event for a black quarterback to start in the NFL, now it has become no big deal, and that doesn't mean that there are more black quarterbacks, but I think it is obvious to everyone that black quarterbacks now get a fair shot.
http://espn.go.com/page2/s/closer/020228.html When one looks at these wonderlic scores by position, one can make inferences into the level of intelligence by position on the football field. Not surprisingly, the trend follows that the positions in the upper half of the wonderlic results produce more head coaches than the positions in the lower half. As you will notice, positions that have a higher % of whites (qb, o-line, center) tend to have higher scores. This is not an opinion statement, this is fact. Since we are well aware of this trend in other intelligence tests (SAT, GMAT, LSAT, MCAT), one can make the inference that the applicant pool for the head coaching position, a position that requires a high level of intelligence, can be different from the applicant pool of the players.
Yeah, there sure are a lot of former offensive tackles coaching in the NFL and college. You're right, that point was right on the money. The fact that 6 of the last 10 SuperBowl Coaches are quartertbacks gives some slight validity to your point, but none of them were offensive tackles, so that debunks your point. Three were tight ends and one was a defensive back. Also, I would like to see some numbers on those offensive tackles who you claim to be mostly white. I mean I don't know, Orlando Pace, Bryant McKinney, Ted Williams, Fred Miller, Brad Hopkins, not to mention the 4 starting tackles in the super bowl were BLACK. You're level of racism contiues to amaze me, you see that the highest scoring position on the wonderlic is offensive tackle and you automaticly assume that those guys are white. Did you even do a little research or did you just guess? And since I have proven the racist idiot that you are, let me continue, if there are so many black offensive tackles, and they score the highest on the wonderlic, why aren't there more black coaches, based on your assumption that the smarter men are hired. Makes you say, uhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmm.
I still dont see why universities should be FORCED to look at minorities. Another thought: If a owner/whoever makes the decision on who is hired to coach is racist, why would a minority want to work for him? Why would you go somewhere where you will be hated and treated as a lesser being? (also, smilies really should be removed)
Not surprisingly, the trend follows that the positions in the upper half of the wonderlic results produce more head coaches than the positions in the lower half. Do you have the breakdown of coaches and their former positions? I think that would be an interesting piece of data to look at.
Another thought: If a owner/whoever makes the decision on who is hired to coach is racist, why would a minority want to work for him? Why would you go somewhere where you will be hated and treated as a lesser being? Perhaps its better than the alternative of being unemployed? Do you really believe that blacks should just accept life without the same opportunities as the rest of us so that everyone can just ignore the problem and pretend all is nice and good?
Do wonderlic scores measure leadership, management, player relations, motiviation skills, people skills, etc.? No. Wonderlic scores are very unpersuasive here.
They do provide an objective look at a skill that we can both agree is important in a head coach -- intelligence. No measure will be a perfect test of coaching credentials, but at least this is an objective, unbiased look at it. This is the best we can do, given the data. This is very powerful evidence which supports the current state of college coaching -- a state that is further supported by a free market system which has chosen the best men to both coach the team and play on the field.
Wow! Art Shell should be a shoo in for a job any year now. An intelligent Hall of Fame tackle with coaching experience and a winning record for his career with playoff appearances! It's a done deal... well maybe not.
They do provide an objective look at a skill that we can both agree is important in a head coach -- intelligence. No measure will be a perfect test of coaching credentials, but at least this is an objective, unbiased look at it. This is the best we can do, given the data. This is very powerful evidence which supports the current state of college coaching -- a state that is further supported by a free market system which has chosen the best men to both coach the team and play on the field. More bad statistics / conclusions. *If* the data shows that coaches tend to be from certain player positions (I'm still waiting on that, since you said the trend exists), then that tends to support the idea that higher Wonderlic scores reflect on good coaching ability. What it still does not explain is why black players with high Wonderlic scores from those player positions are still not getting the head coach jobs, while white players with lower Wonderlic scores from less coaching-quality positions still do here and there. That would just be more evidence that race is playing a factor.
Being from the area, I have to say that Jesse Jackson is nuts in this issue. He cannot just barge in as if it's his, racial issue. Sure, Croom was more qualified, but he's nearly twice the age of Shula. There are many here, including blacks, that absolutely HATE what Jackson is doing. There is a Reverand driving around in a van against Jesse Jackson (I think his name is Rev. Blacks or soemthing like that). He was all over the news saying how Jackson is absolutely stupid for doing this. (he's black btw) Sorry if I didn't read the posts here, but oh well.
No, I believe they can work some place else. This is not just a black issue. Would a Jewish man want to work for an owner who has made anti-sematic remarks in the past? Would a homosexual want to work for an owner or head of office that has a strong disliking of gays? I am not in anyway trying to support these owners, but a person should realize where he or she is not wanted and move on. Why would you go somewhere you are not truly wanted?
No, I believe they can work some place else. How many different places are there to get a job as a head football coach? Or are you suggesting that instead of fighting for a fair opportunity, they should just pick a different profession? but a person should realize where he or she is not wanted and move on. Why would you go somewhere you are not truly wanted? Because you deserve the right to be there.
Major, I see your point but I was just merely pointing out an old adage in an effort to see if that was where TJ was coming from. But you bring up some good points, and I agree that the process is woefully behind the times. I like reading and talking to you Major, because you are calm and classy and you debate in a way that makes me think and not get upset at the same time.
