Frist of all they would have drafted those players because they are better than Wallace, and could have netted them someone better than Wallace via trade. Here's another Playoff team that made some draft day bad decisions. The Dallas MAvericks picked Etan Thomas while Quentin Richardson, Desmond Mason, and Turkoglu was available. Magloire was also available and while not a star is definitely done more than Etan Thomas. How about Orlando Magic who took Steven Hunter when Parker and Tinsley were available. Then there is the Utah Jazz who took Curtis Borchardt while Tayshaun prince was still available. Look at what Prince has done in the playoffs. The Jazz could have used that in their frist round. Again the Sac Kings who took Jayson Williams when Paul Pierce was available. I'm also not in favor of just standing pat. I would like the Rockets to get a consistent 3-pt shooter, a veteran and a good PG. They can trade whoever they need to in order to get those things other than Yao and Steve. Some of those things may be able to be combined in one player (i.e. A veteran good pg.) As for the list, it's all above. Plenty of bad picks were taken while good picks were available. Plenty of good picks were taken while better ones were available. Sorry, mistakes even by the best teams are common when it comes to selecting personel. If you fired your entire staff everytime that kind of thing happened, nobody would want to work for you, and there would be nobody left to work for you.
You talk about steal of the draft in Thomas when he was drafted right about in the place he was suppose to. Mo Taylor ca to play for cheap beacuse no one wanted him besides seasttle and that was only in the quest to get ewing or ho grant. If the Rockets thought they had the pf of the future, then why did they keep kenny thomas around? If they thought Thomas was going to be a 4 for them, why did they go get Taylor. taylor played avg and got a very,very good contract when no one else would have given him 8 mill per for 13ppg and 5 rebs which was barely above what the sg was getting per game. Its all about having a sense of direction and a plan. The Spurs had a chance to get SAR for Smith and someone, but declined because they really want Kidd. Even if they don't get a chance to get Kidd, they'll still have enough money to get a impact player. When older players retire, what you want is cap space to go along with what you have. Had Hakeem been resigned to a 2 yr deal, Taylor,Norris,Anderson let walk, the Rockets would have enough for a max player this summer. Even with the good fortune of landing Ming, imagine getting or offering Brand July 1st 7 yrs 80mill and forcing the Clipps to match. If we had thought ahead and kept the plan moving, we would be in gret shape and have the chance of setting up a real dynasty. Now we have to sit and ponder to think about this player in a trade and that player in a trade. Just something to ponder. The same summer when Hakeem came free, we had the chnce to sign taylor,anderson,and Norris. Imagine this scenerio: Hakeem, through his loyalty and whatever else is signed to a 2yr 16mill contract. Taylor is left to walk, as well as norris and anderson. That same yr earlier we had just drafted our suppose 4 of the future, but we still had thomas. So we throw out Francis ,Mobley,Walt Williams or Morris,Thomas and Hakeem. The backups are Brown/colson,Morris or langhi,cato and griffin. The team sucked, which it did anyway because of injury, but the team is still on its way. We get gift wrapped Ming , never mind nachbar. Now because of the injury, Ming is forced into the lineup for Hakeem, Cato is the back up, Brown is Francis backup, Torress is Cat's,Morris or whoever plays the 3 along with thomas or Griffin at the 4 spot. We miss the playoffs by ever how many games, but Kaeems 8mill is coming of the books this summer! So this summer, the rockets have francis,11mil,Cato,7mill,Griffin 3mill,Cat 4mill and the rest are 1 mill or less. Add that up and you get 25mill in contracts, so that means the rockets would have enough money this summer for a max contract to add to the mix. So who do you want, Odom,Brand,Duncan,or Oneal? 14 mill ready to hand over and the Rockets could have their choice instead of trying these so called trades. Its called having a plan and sticking to it. Its also called rebuilding.
NWO, #1, I was not even refering to you in my post. Not sure why you feel the need to get so defensive. #2, I will get off the Griffin/Jefferson issue as soon as the anti-Rudy/Carol people stop bringing it up as an excuse to fire both. #3, You say that the Rockets should have known what they were doing when they made that trade. At the time, they thought they knew what they were doing. It has not worked out, so far. However, to say that they should have "known what they were doing" is ridiculous. Highsight is 20/20. You would have a hard time finding anyone who felt that was a bad trade, AT THE TIME. Every draft expert said we had pulled off a hell of a trade and that we go the better player. You know how much heat the Nets took in the NY media for that trade? ALOT! #4, For every 10 bad moves you brought up in your opening post, I can bring up 10 good moves that have been made by our management. #5, You bring up all these role players and say "Hey look, they are contributing to playoff teams. Why didnt we keep them?". Know what? With or without Brian Shaw and Rober Horry, the Lakers still make the playoffs. With or without Kenny Thomas, the Sixers still make the playoffs. With or without Najera, Williams and Johnson, the Mavs still make the playoffs. With or without Pippen, the Blazers still make the playoffs. With or without Cassell and Prizbilla, the Bucks still make the playoffs. With our without Willis, the Spurs make the playoffs. With or without Langhi, the Suns still make the playoffs. With our without Jefferson, Collins and Armstrong, the Nets still make the playoffs. So your opening post proves nothing. I guess if we release Collier and the Lakers decide to sign him, then Rudy and Carol with be rediculed because lo and behold, "Look!! Collier is playing for a playoff contender! Why didn't we keep him??!??!" It easy for a role player to look good, when they are playing with one of the top 5 players in the league. Wanna bring up how many bad contracts we have on our team? Guess what? Probably at least 20 teams in the league have what they would consider 2-3 bad contracts. Wanna bring up how many bad draft moves we have made? Guess what? Probably at least 25 teams have players on their team that they would draft much lower had they known how that player would develope. Come on NWO, go ahead and stipulate. We can go back and forther on the good and the bad for the next year. The fact of the matter is, Rudy is not one of the best coaches in the league. The fact of the matter is, Rudy is not one of the worst coaches in the league. The fact of the matter is, CD is not one of the best GMs in the league. The fact of the matter is, CD is not one of the worst GMs in the league. The FACT of the matter is, the Rudy/CD tandem has made some bold moves over the years. Some have worked out and some have not. So quit disecting every bad move they have ever made in order to support your theory that we should both be fired, especially without bringing up the great moves they have made.
I agree. Rudy and CD acted as if signing Moochie was like the final piece of this dynasty. They totally disrespected Hakeem and actually wanted Moochie more than they wanted Hakeem. Our so-called player's coach inflated Moochie's ego to the point that the scrub actually had the nerves to hold out. You reap what you sow!
Well, I don't think Keenny Thomas is that great to begin with, but all of your Rocket front-office bashers are making him out to be the greatest thing since sliced bread and are acting like the Rockets traded away the Babe Ruth of basketball for a handful of magic beans. As far as getting him where he was "supposed" to go, that misses the point entirely. The fact that the Rockets were able to get a starting NBA player at the 22 selection is what is remarkable. Look at the guys chosen before him who were also chosen where they were "supposed" to go: Frederic Weis, Quincy Lewis, Cal Bowdler, Jeff Foster, William Avery, Alexander Radojevic, Dion Glover, Trajan Langdon. Why did they keep Thomas around? because he was a good player and had a cheap, rookie 3 year deal, and a little something called depth. What should they have done, cut him and signed Pig Miller? Taylors numbers are misleading. He started slow, granted, but then came on like wildfire the last two months of his first season, and his numbers improved a good deal. The rest of your post is all if's and but's, 20/20 hindsight, speculation. If they had not made this move or that move, we wouldn't likely have Ming either, so I don't really feel like speculating about that.
OK. here's some: Boston trades FOR Vin Baker. That's maybe the worst personnel move of all time. New Jersey signs Kieth Van Horn to a Maximum deal, and then compounds their mistake by trading for washed-up useless Dikembe Mutumbo. Utah drafts Deshawn Stevenson in the first round, and then lets Donyell Marshall get away for nothing, and might lose Karla for nothing this year. Phoenix trades away Jason Kidd for a player who, last year, was considered an injury prone, me first point guard, trades for injury list regulars Gugliotta and Hardaway, uses a first round pick on Casey Jacobsen. Minnesota has doene nothing significant to help Garnett for years via free agency, trades, or otherwise, because they stupidly gave an illegal huge contract to journeyman Joe Smith. Portland trades away Jermanine Oneal for Dale Davis, O neal becomes a star, Etc., etc., etc. Hell, the only teams that I can think of that are pretty much beyond reproach are SA, Dallas, and Sacramento. These teams all made good moves too, as did the Rockets. I want to know who you want to get to be the new GM? Jerry Krause?
Y'all amaze me. Some of the players you're talking about are 10 years into their careers!! I guarantee you could go look at any teams moves over the last 10 years and find the same thing. Hindsight is always 20/20!! Why are you even talking about it?? It's not like you can go back and do anything about it! Maybe some of you should apply for the job of GM? I mean since y'all scout so extensively and research all possible scenarios? Oh wait......you only do that 5-10 after the fact??
*** Indicates another, non-MacBeth voice*** ***Yeah...they need change. Let's bring somone with vision(S), strategy, tactis...someone who has a backgound in classical and military history...someone with a pornstar as a sexual friend...someone who tried to ride his bike down a hill with his feet on the handlebards and his hands behind his head...someone who lives with 5 college girls...someone with experience in hight level sports, theatre and film, and managed a bar... Clearly this is the man to lead the Rockets out of the Quagmire they find themselves in...But, by Zeus, does anybody know such a perfectly qualified man? Is such a man possible?*****
A 5 ppg backup center with a ridiculous contract of still 25+ millions and 3 years remaining is a good trade bait? Sorry but it's really difficult to discuss things with homers. It's really difficult to discuss with people with little to no knowledge of the general NBA state and collective bargaining agreement. I give up.
Yeah, you can give up. You keep bringing up the 5 ppg stat. How about Ben Wallace's 7 ppg in 39 mpg? Wallace is a 2nd team All NBA player. Wallace is #1 in r/48min at 18.8. Cato is 4th at 16.5, more than Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan. Cato is 11th in blk/48min, more than Brand, Shaq and J. O'Neal. Again, read my post. I'm not arguing Cato's contract is good. I'm saying that it doesn't look as bad as a year ago, when nobody, I mean NOBODY, forsaw his improvement. Yeah, you can give up.
Cato is flat out an asset. Very tradable. IMO the Rox need to swap Cato now while he is valuable. IMO -- Cato would upgrade many of the East's rosters. IMO -- Cato is billed as six muscle fouls to counter Shaq for the West. Swap Cato. Get value. It can, should, and must be done. Homer? Isn't that was Kent was brought in to do?
I agree that Cato is one of the best back-up C's around. The only reason why I would be leery about trading for him is precisely because of that; He's much better playing limited, intense minutes as a backup. His per 48 min averages would sadly sink to the levels of years past if he were a starter again, IMO. But who knows, maybe some dumb team will jump on it.
Some team will jump on it. They'll take Cato. Cato earned my respect this year -- but not my confidence. He is tall and 'only' owed @25 mil. Knicks will bid for him and Griff and take someone else, like Mooch. Rox'll get Kurt Thomas, the lotto pick, and Witherspoon for filler. Make the deal. Make it. Make it!
Cato has no offensive skills, but neither does Ben Wallace. Cato is a very good rebounder. He's a decent defender. That's better than a lot of starting centers in the league. He's a backup this year only because Yao is better. It is not clear if being a backup helps him, or he really have improved. His problem in the past was not talent. It was motivation. We thought that's because he got the fat contract and wanted to sit on it. It turned out that he might have the problem of chronic depression. At the beginning of this season, he reportedly had taken on the responsibility to deal with that problem. If he really did that, there's no reason not to believe he can continue to be effective even as a starter for another team. Cato wouldn't be a good starter in the hayday of great centers. But given the lack of quality center in the league, he has quite a bit of trade value even with the big contract. The obvious question is, who do we have to backup Yao if we trade Cato away?
It would be wrong to get rid of Rudy at this point after his illness. Give him a certain amount of time, like 2 seasons maybe. If the team hasn't done better by then, he should be gone. If he hadn't gotten sick I'd say he should have been gone a long time ago. Go out and find a legit General Manager. Once Rudy is gone find a coach that will discipline the team. Right now they play like a bunch of street balla's.
According to this quote, and I may have misinterpreted this, but it looks like this was forwarded at me. Now to your other statements: According to most of the posts that I see, most of us want to bump Rudy to a higher position in the front office so he can get rid of the wackos who have made these terrible decisions in the past few years. You might be right about that, but the Rockets as of RIGHT NOW are the jackasses at the end of that trade. We have a player who hasn't fulfilled his capabilities as of when he was playing for Seton Hall. At the time, we looked like All-Stars when we picked them. But I'm talking as of the aftermath of the pick. They need to put him through some intense training and get him into shape for next season. They need to put him and Ming through the same intense weight lifting so they can build some upper body and grow up to be men. For your information, I didn't mention any moves by the management. I said on an OVERALL BASIS that they have made moves that just raise eyebrows! Some of them that we look back on make me think "WHAT THE HELL WERE THEY THINKING?" Now you say you can bring up 10 good moves, go on ahead. I'm pretty sure you can, but once you have listed, explain how long that move stood. Because the majority of them didn't turn out so great. Now let's see on this point. You say that w/o Robert Horry and Brian Shaw, the Lakers won't make the playoffs. You might be right on that, but hell, they wouldn't a 5th seed entering the playoffs. I think if they didn't have those two, the Rockets would of been in the playoffs now and not the Lakers. Those two play an integral part on that team when it comes down to crunch time. Now the Mavs. You say if they didn't have Najera, Williams, or Johnson, they still would of made it. That is true too. But Najera plays a HUGE part off that bench and Williams contributes here and there. AJ, I can agree w/ you on that. Then the Bucks. You are right about Pryzilla, or whatever his name is. But Cassell is a huge loss to that team if they didn't have him. He helped that squad through the season when Allen was injured. They would of never played in the playoffs w/o him. Willis is another I agree with you. But right now, he is a big man that the Spurs need to slow down Shaq when Duncan or Robinson isn't on the floor or in foul trouble. The Nets. Jefferson and Collins are playing big roles in the playoffs for the Nets. For the season, if those two didn't play, they don't make it. That's what I think. Armstrong doesn't play a role on that team, but the other two do. So my opening post does prove something. Now on Collier. I don't care about him. If he does produce somewhere other than here, I can say this. The Rockets surely don't know how to run their players on this team. It sucks that we don't give players a chance to show themselves on this team, and then they play a role on a team that emerges them to the playoffs. When you say they look good playing w/ a top 5 player, what is Francis? What is Ming? I wouldn't say top 5, but they surely emerge in the top 20. And the contract issue, why don't you name those 20 teams. I'm not sure if you have been watching the season, but I have. And the Rockets have made some poor decisions when I see these players play when they are given a chance.
As stated before, for every bad move you can note, I can note a good move. You seem to insinuate that our management has made nothing but bad moves and run this team into the ground, which justifies their dismissal. Once again, hindsight is 20/20. At the time the trade was made, it was the right decision. Not one person out there thought Jefferson was a better player/prospect than Griff. I do agree with the weightraining theory. However, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. Bulk is only on a small part of EG's problem. Personally, I think EG is fighting some demons. He obviously has a drub problem and a problem with hanging out with the wrong crowd (allegedly). I mean, the kid looks flat out depressed. I honestly think he is a troubled guy. I know many may disagree, but I did see a lil bit of improvement in EG last year. He showed flashes of having some decent low post moves. He had a nice stretch of rebounding games in March and February. He even put the ball on the floor every so often and looked quite capable. Two biggest problems I see with EG are 1) His shooting touch and 2) His consitency/motivation. EG needs to find something or someone who can keep him motivated and he needs to work on his shooting touch. I think the rest will come afterwards. I still believe in EG and would not be at all shocked to see the Rockets open up with him at the 4 next year. I agree with the bad moves. And as you have acknowledged, there have been good moves. As far as the ones that have lasted or will last? Francis Trade, Mobley contract, Drafting of Yao, trade for Posey, etc. Its not like our management has run this team in the ground. They have always gambled. Ya win some, ya lose some. At least they are proactive and are always trying to make this team better. I would have to disagree. If the Lakers did not have Shaw, I am sure they would manage to find someone to make up for his 12 mins per game, 3.5 ppg, 1.4 apg and 38% shooting. Same for Horry. Horry's gig (making wide open 3 pointers) took a nose dive this year. In fact, last I checked, Horry shot like 27% from the 3 point line this year. Actually, if you compare Horry with Griffin, Griffin had the superior stats in less minutes. Horry and Shaw did little this year to help the Lakers obtain the 5th seed. Williams contributed here and there for us too. Unfortunately, he was about the same productive player for Dallas as he was for us. I agree on Najera. However, if anyone thought he was going to be the player he turned out to be, then he would have been drafted much higher. Cassell is no doubt a quality starting PG. However, at the time, he was attractive trade bait. We went farther in the playoffs the next year without him and with Barkley. With Hakeem's career winding down, that trade had to be made for one last title shot. Hakeem/Horry/Cassell were no longer getting it done. I have no problem with this trade and I don't think this should be held against Rudy and Carol. SA needed Willis, we didn't. We had Yao and Cato. We didn't have the PT that Willis deserves. Also, Willis stated that one of the reasons he signed with SA was so he could have a legit shot at a ring before he retired. Again, it is not fair to say that our management erred by letting him walk. I definitely concede here. Jefferson, out of all the players you mentioned, makes the most difference, as he is the 3rd best player on their team. However, at the time the trade was made, everyone (besides the Nets) felt we caught the good end of that trade. I was merely noting Collier to prove a point. And that is, its not fair to ridicule our front office for letting go of players that don't fit in our plans. Just because they play well for another team, does not mean its because our coaches did know how to coach them. Teams with bad contracts: Miami (Grant and Jones) Boston (Baker) New Jersey (Mutombo) New York (Houston, Sprewell, Anderson, Eisley) Orlando (Hill) Philly (Van Horn and McCullough) Chicago (Rose) Indiana (Croshere and Mercer) Toronto (Carter, Olajuwon and Hunter) Dallas (LaFrent and Wahad) Memphis (Dickerson) Minnesota (Brandon and Smith) Golden State (Fortson and Sura) Phoenix (Hardaway) Portland (Stoudamire) Sacramento (Pollard) Seattle (Potapenko and James) So thats 18 teams that also have bad contracts like us. Most of their GMs are safe (with the exception of Whitsitt and one or 2 others), last I heard.
2001-If you could go back you of course would do this. The only thing consistent here is the team took a gamble on one great player instead of three good ones. Wallace isn't any better. Tinsley, Arenas and Parker? We had Francis. Why the need to pick up a guard when we needed a forward? Randolph was predicted by everyone to be good at best. The Rocks did the best they could to grab what could possibly be a great player. That O'neal guy looked like a you tweener that wasn't going to amount to anything his first few years too. But maybe you don't really care about that. Rockets of course have a bad management. 1999- We needed a forward to backup Barkley. Way to go listing 3 players that coulnd't even play that year and were uncertain to play ever. Kirlinko didn't play till a few years ago and the last two just to play this year. Of course you are just so smart you must have know they would be ok for play and would be this good. Once again the team is consistent. We picked a player that could play. Thomas isn't really that bad by the way. His numbers are the same and better then the players you mentioned. Of course once again you must be right and the management wrong. 1998- Radoslav Nesterovic, Ricky Davis, Al Harrington and Rashard Lewis hmmm? Well Dickerson was pretty good. If he didn't get injured, how could he not be considered a good player. He would put numbers very similar to Davis now when he was in his second year. Davis didn't look all to great at the begining. Good thing his team didn't throw him away after a few years of under achieving. This was one loaded draft. Nobody picked H.S. that year as simple as that. The league still believed in drafting proven college players. Stupid them. Both H.S. players went low. And you listed Turkan and as a bad pick. Right, point well taken. We shouldn't take a risk on talented foriegn players here but 1999 we shouldn't learn from our mistake of not always getting a foreign player to come and draft foreigners n e ways. Right, got ya. Because the Rocks knew he wouldned come but next year we knew Andre would come. Man you are a genius. 2001- Here is where you can bash the team all you want. This damn team show loyalty. I wish I could have a team that was all business and didn't care but we got stuck with these caring loyal sob's. How much fun is it to you to watch a team that didn't love each other and its management. This management is loyal to the players. Its not just about production and business here. In the outside world, in business you have to make some coldhearted decisions to get ahead some times. Pity be to those who show loyalty to a fan favorite and a man that came here for less. The management screwed up here. It thought with its heart not just with its brain. 2000- We saw good signs from this guy. We need a center for the future. We jumped the gun. But do you even pay attention to what the others around the league are paying centers. Wait, the rocks are the only ones to do this. Sonics didn't do it after seeing Booth play a little in the playoffs. The Nets didn't pay Todd Mac anything at all. Man you are so smart. Rocks seem to be the only ones that do this. Now lastly to reply to your last comment. Ok smart one let me explain something to you. The NBA is like a bounceing ball. When a good team goes down another one bounces up. The Rocks hve been on the decline after the 90's. All the teams in the playoffs already made thier mistakes and now their goods (like our Ming and Francis) are finally paying off. Mavs traded for Bradley. Lakers traded Jones for Rice. Spurs got lucky picking up Duncan. These teams have made mistakes. But they have made up for them and were going through the rebuilding process while we were still good. A better comparison to us is Jazz and Bulls and Sonics, teams that were elite when we were elite and are now rebuilding. We seem to be on par if not ahead of them. We don't have the best management. The great managements get lucky the best manangements take risk. You have to be in the middle when you aren't having a top ten player on your team which every playoff team has. But we are getting there. We are with the other magority that didn't get lucky, so its up to us to take risks. We have tried EG and maybe he will still work. Trying are best and not seeing the future is the best we can do. Now go do your homework for the rest of the teams to try to prove your point. You'll see you don't have one.
Actually, I think none of those decisions are bad. Some of those you could go any way and by shear luck the rox have ended up w/ the worse of the players ( eg Langhi for Najara). But the one that really gets me is passing up Rashard three times to finally bring in Bryce Drew . Now that is almost up there for passing Clyde for McCray in 83. So for the next few years everytime I hear of Rashrd's contributions and the abscence of Bryce from the league i will wonder about Rudy's wisdom.
I didn't say that management made only bad moves for this team. I didn't say they ran this team to the ground. They have made some good moves in their time, but it's just mindboggling at times that they way they think on the outlook of this team. I agree w/ some of the moves that the Rockets have made but they have gambled a lot. I agree w/ the proactiveness to get this team better, but it hasn't always been for the better. But the moves you mentioned were in the past 2-3 years. They were mostly toward rebuilding our team. I don't want to be in the stages of where the Nuggets, Clippers, Hawks, etc. But ever since the Hakeem era went into oblivion, that's the route we have been going. We had to restructure our offense around Francis and now that isn't working so well w/ Ming, Mobley, Taylor wanting the ball. This team really needs to sit down and figure out how this offense can flow w/ all the players contributing (ala Kings, Mavs, etc.). Now when you say the Lakers would manage w/o Shaw, who is going to step at backup point when Fisher was out or when he was sucking this season? Pargo? He hasn't fully developed yet into a player! The Lakers brought him in when it was crunch time and he came through. Horry, now who would replace him at PF? According to their roster, there isn't anyone else on the team that can take his spot. Samaki Walker?!? Yea, right... Medvendko? No. Now when you compare Horry to Griffin, that's apples to oranges. Griffin is still a little baby. He hasn't grown up yet to know what pressure is like. He hasn't gone to the playoffs like Horry has. So stat wise per minute, you can say that. But who has the 5 championship rings and can play under pressure to win the title? Only in this postseason that Horry has sucked. But I would definitely pick Horry over Griffin when it comes down to experience and when the going gets tough. With all the injuries to that team this past season, they really stepped up and helped the team from self-destructing. I agree here. How far can you go after winning a championship? Barkley, along w/ Drexler and Hakeem, got us a great record, helped us get to Utah in the Conference Finals, but I think Cassell at the point would of been a major improvement over Matt Maloney. But we never got to see that. I would of loved to see the 95' Championship team run that same squad the next year instead w/ Barkley. I don't think they would have acheived the same record that Barkley got, but I think Cassell manning the point would of made the offense flow easier. Agreed. What was the use of drafting Collier if he doesn't fit on this team? He is just taking up space on the bench and we are wasting money on him. Just like Cato when we got his sorry butt in our trade w/ Pippen. But now he has developed into a backup center that is very suitable to Ming. I think the front office and the coaches need to get together more so they can straighten out their decisions.
