Good News: Pressure increasing on Israeli Policies

godspeed Rockets R' Us.

 

I don't see the parallel. What I posted is a fact. As far as I know, it is a fact that Obama is not a Muslim.

Here is the data to support my claim that most Muslims in the region have unfavorable views of Jews (to put it mildly):

http://www.pewglobal.org/2005/07/14/islamic-extremism-common-concern-for-muslim-and-western-publics/

The other fact is that most Muslims believe the attacks on 9/11 were not carried out by Arabs.

Muslim Beliefs about September 11

http://judaism.about.com/od/americanworldjewry/a/muslimviews.htm

So I cited facts, not weird conspiracy theories of Obama supposedly being a Muslim.

I just don't see the parallel you are trying to construe here.

 

Interesting that you bring up Ya'alon. His ill-advised jackass comments could be game changing beacause:

[Short version for those that don't want to read: All politics are local]

1. Both the PA and Israel governments want to avoid any real concession. Both leaders are too weak to survive the backlash from those in their respective constiutencies that would brand them as traitors for "giving away land for nothing."

2. The game for both parties is to appear to be the ones willing to make the concession and blame the other when this peace talk fails. It's like watching a soccer match where both teams pack 11 guys around their own goals and constantly fall down in the box in the hopes of getting a penalty kick.

3. When Moshe Ya'alon put his foot in his mouth, he expressed what is in reality a mainstream opinion of the current coalition in power. Netanyahu didn't reprimand him or issue any statement saying it was out of line.

4. He probably would if he could, but avoiding angering his own supporters will always trump the pressures from the US and other nations. This is because he, like Abbas, has a weak mandate and a lukewarm support from the electorate as a whole, and can't afford to alienate his base. And his base is largely from the people who cheer Moshe Ya'alon. If he angers them, he can expect yet another strong challenge to him from within his own party.

5. This is what made Ariel Sharon such a political enigma -- he could risk angering whomever he wanted for the sake of realpolitik (like leaving Gaza) and still stay in office long enough to see it through. He had more political capital than any leader short of Ben-Gurion and was probably the best hope of quitting the West Bank. I always had this dark fantasy that he'd wake up from his coma, be told what was going on and say "What are you talking about? I'm still the PM!"

6. There's this idea (especially common amongst the right in Israel) that Kerry is yet another naive American bent on making glory for himself at the expense of Israeli sovereignity. I don't subscribe to that point of view, and I think the gaffe made has given Kerry a new tool to lean on the usual fountain of Israeli intransigence when it comes to making peace.

7. The peace talks have a deadline in late April. If it fails, the biggest loser will be the US, as American credibility and influence will continue to wane in the Middle East in general. For Netanyahu and company, this means a short term victory, but a much larger challenge long term, because a failure to make any inroads towards reconciliation will only increase the influence of the BDS community and more radical elements of change abroad, as well as the single stater minority within both Israel and Palestine.

8. Sacrificing their own best friend's political clout to preserve their own intransigence will not bode well for Israel, either. Yet another US diplomatic failure means future peace talks are that much liklier to be EU mediated. If you think the Likudniks hate Kerry, wait until they get Baroness Catherine Ashton. All rhetoric for low information voters aside, no US administration has been more pro-Israel than Obama other than maybe LBJ. If, and likely when these talks fail, Israel is going to miss John Kerry.

 

The bigger point I'm trying to drive home is that I believe you're still capable of making intelligent arguments without anchoring them a religious bias exhibited by Mathloom/muslims/any other person and/or faith.

All the character assassination is unnecessary for good back/forth discourse. Anyhow, I digress.

Deji I agree with most of what you said. US and Israel both have an interesting fork in the road they're approaching. US insistence to try and get something done is an attempt to reclaim the lost credibility in the middle east as well as the rest of the world.

Our recent foreign policy slip ups have been highlighted by major allies, such as India for example, rebuking our behavior and even going so far as expelling our diplomats. This would've been unheard of in past years, since the US was always seen as the more dominant player in any bilateral int'l relationships. Add that to the backing down from both Syria and Iran this year...even if you don't consider it backing down but strategic/diplomatic foot shifting...still gives us the weak image internationally. I don't particularly blame the Obama Administration for this, it's kind of the expected result when you follow something like the Bush Administration, that went in war hungry and wasn't satisfied til' blood was spilled. The dichotomy of the two administrations is only magnified by the stark differences in the way they chose to handle their conflicts. Obama has always withdrawn from conflict (sometimes with good reason, and perhaps greater diplomatic result) but his overall international reputation has suffered as a result. Then you got that whole NSA, "we're always watching" thing going on which has been a turn off.

For Israel, the int'l pressure is ramping up to a point unseen before. More and more countries are cutting ties, whether it's business or personal, and now more than ever US is the biggest and closest friend Israel has. With the international acceptance of Iran back into the int'l community, Russia and China's blessing, and the falling level of US influence, Israel should be working much harder to hang on and cherish the American relationship. Unfortunately, you have the hardliners in Israel guiding the policy, with the occasional truth coming to surface via foot in mouth comments a la Ya'alon. The Palestinians have gained immense political ground the last few years by stepping back from relying on US efforts to mediate peace and relying on the EU, UN and other international bodies. The step toward being recognized for statehood was taken in opposition to what the US wanted, but has now turned out to be a great foreign policy move on their behalf to advance Palestinian interests.

I've tried to learn more but I'm still severely uneducated about the geopolitical and socioeconomic makeup and status of different classes in Israel. Why is it that the hardliners in Israel retain so much power & influence in decision making? From the majority of 3rd and 4th generation Jewish Americans I've met, they've moved more and more left and in favor of the 2 state solution then I would've imagined, seeing the color of Israeli politics and interests. Is there just a huge divide between Israeli citizens and expats? Do the hardliners have the majority of $ in Israel, thereby allowing them to control what is a "democratically" elected coalition gov't?

 

Partly because of the way the democratic system here works. In national elections, you vote for one of many, many parties. You make one vote, for one party. You don't vote for candidates at the national level. All parties past a certain threshold get a percentage of the 120 seats in the Knesset.

The winning party has to create a majority government, and to get in power, it has to wheel and deal amongst the smaller parties to get a coalition of 61 seats. Likud actually came in second in recent history, but Netanyahu still managed to be PM because Livni (whose party won the most votes) wasn't able or willing (depending on who you ask) to build a coalition.

That means any coalition is going to have the Haredi parties, who will participate in any government as long as they keep the welfare checks going to the Ultra Orthodox men who don't work, and they get to keep control of the religious status quo in the state. You otherwise have to make nice with the Settlers, who are a mix of secular and religious right-wingers who don't want to give up the settlements in the West Bank, ever, for any reason. Considering these are the two largest trouble making groups from the point of view of the average Israeli voter, you pretty much have to pick the lesser evil between these two "causes" that often work as kingmakers.

If Arab Israelis actually showed up to vote and voted for Arab parties, they'd probably be just as influencial, but their turnout has always been poor, partly from general apathy, partly because some don't want to participate in a government they don't recognize. The ones that tend to be more educated and more likely to participate in Israeli political life have traditionally voted Avoda (Labor) but I'm not sure if that's still true.

There's a huge difference between Israelis and Jews in the diaspora in general, especially the US. In Israel, people tend to be Orthodox or non-practicing, and the Reform/Conservative/Reconstructionist/Humanistic streams of Judaism prevelant in American Jewish life are frowned upon and have no official status in Israel. And that's not likely to change considering what I just explained about the Haredi parties and their monopoly on religion.

American Jews tend to be way more left wing and socially liberal than Israeli Jews, but are more likely to be supportive of Israeli governments in general (they don't have to pay punitive Israel taxes, subsidize the ultra-religious, or serve in the army) and tend to see "support" of Israel right or wrong as part of their identity.

Israeli expats to the US usually tend to be more critical of the government, but after time, start to become more pro-government as they live away (at least according to stuff I read) and their opinions start to become more like US Jews.

In France, the UK and Russia (the other countries with large Jewish populstions) they tend to be more traditional in political affiliation, politics and identification with Israeli and zionism.

American Jews are different than all, but they have a large voice because their population is only slightly less than that of Israel, and that only happened a few years ago (the US before had the largest Jewish population in the world).

Despite Israel's long legacy of socialism, wealth disparity is a serious problem. There are something like 12 families that privately own a huge chunk of the private land and and wealth here. They support Likud, who who return the favor with tax breaks (an even tax amnesties on back taxes) that make a lot of people in Israel pretty irate.

From the diaspora there are also guys like Lev Leviev who is a self-made billionaire in the diamond industry who contributes millions to right-wing candidates and causes in Israel and to building projects in the settlements (and who, despite being a naturalized Israeli, lives in London to avoid the tax hit from being here). I once tried to interview him in my short career as a journalist (mind you, for the Israeli press and at a conference in Tel Aviv) and when I asked him about the protests in his stores in London and New York, he said he "didn't have time to talk to anti-semites."

In America you have Sheldon Adelson, who gives millions to Netanyahu as well as "pro-Israel" Republican candidates in the US) and started a free newspaper in Israel called Israel HaYom (Israel Today) that Israelis nickname "Bibiton" for its no-holds-barred praise of anything and everything Netanyahu and Likud. It makes the New York Post look like the Guardian by comparison.

Left-wing Jewish political supporters in the diaspora with deep pockets tend to back humanistic causes, so guys like George Soros don't tend to fund the traditional left causes or media or candidates in Israel. Not his bag. He goes for things more global in scope. HaAretz, for example, Israel's premeire left-of-center paper recently had to build a paywall just to stay in business (and this after multiple rounds of massive layoffs). I'm sure they'd love someone like Soros or some rich American or Brit to rescue them, but it's not coming. Left-wing Zionism is a brand that has long lost its luster (other than brief facination for Oslo-era Rabin), and to a large degree, it is its own fault.

So yeah, the right in Israel have far more rich friends both domestically and abroad. To be fair, they are way more organized and are much better at reaching out and making these friends.

Nettanyahu has a lot of advisors that are right-wing Americans, and like the most of the 30% of Jews in the US who vote Republican, tend to be more traditional and religious and tend to be way more committed to Israel and have done a lot to redefine Zionism as a post '67 referendum for traditional religion, Settlements, and killing the welfare state (a topic that would make a longer post than this one).

The other 70% don't tend to be as invested in Israel and while they might be politically more centrist or left, it also comes with less and less identification with Israel or its left over time or any sense of shared fate, but still tend to be very defensive of any criticism of Israel, if that makes any sense.

Most of the Americans I know that lived here after 3 or 4 years tend to go either way, either embracing idealism, religious or otherwise, or like me, became very critical of the religious and nationalistic nonsense that gets away with doing very short-sighted and damaging things to society. The others that do neither don't tend to last long and go back home.

 

Deji;8611769]Interesting that you bring up Ya'alon. His ill-advised jackass comments could be game changing beacause:

[Short version for those that don't want to read: All politics are local]

I really think the two state solution is over. First it was the facts on the ground. Now nobody really wants it. Time for Israel/Palestine to start the transition to a modern multi-ethnic state with no one one privileged religious or ethnic group.

[/QUOTE]

Wow. You sound like you really thought these talks would amount to something.

 

Deji, what do you thing of the new book "Goliath" by Max Blumenthal. It is receiving a lot of press in America and is being featured in major forums like book tv, despite the usual tactics of having a tantrum and branding any such work as anti-Semitic by a self-hating Jew etc.

As an aside I see Dershowitz has quit Harvard and is supposedly moving to Israel to devote himself to Zionism.

 

For the best info on the boycott, divestment, sanction movement which is the best hope for some sort of resolution for all the folks living in the region, regardless of religion or ethnicity.

See http://www.bdsmovement.net/

 

Sorry glynch, I had a long reply for you and it didn't up getting submitted.

The boycott is starting to sting in Israel, and local press is starting to take it seriously and not dismiss it with the usual hasbara talking points.

I'm familiar with Blumenthal's video of the racist Taglit kids in Jerusalem (which was bold). I'm not familar with his books, nor am I likely to find them in Israeli book stores, but I noticed even The Forward (not exactly a neo-con paper) isn't too high on the last book.

And Dershowitz...sigh. His arguments are at least 30 years out of date and his Israel right-or-wrong approach doesn't help. There are other high profile Americans that have come to Israel and contributed in some way. I have way more respect for say Stanley Fisher's kind of Zionism that I do Dershowitz, and he has a far more realistic grasp on Israeli's problems and was outspoken about them, especially within his capacity as an economist.

There's nothing wrong with identifiying with Israel and contributing in some way, but Dershowitz lives in a hasbara bubble IMHO and his arguments are so tired and disconnected with reality.

 

http://www.jewishpress.com/news/bre...ual-pay-benefits-and-rights-video/2014/01/25/

Apartheid...pffft.

 

You don't get it. When Palestinians build their own companies that can compete with Israeli companies, it's called illegal, and is destroyed. Apartheid indeed.

 

Do you have some links from unbiased sources to bolster your claim?

 

I can give you the name of the Chomsky book that sites it, if you'd like. Perhaps you feel that's too biased, though.

 

I would like to see any concrete examples of Palestinian companies which supposedly competed with Israeli companies and were therefore destroyed.

 

It wasn't about examples where it's happened. It was about the the military directive which mandates that Palestinians aren't allowed to own businesses that compete with Israeli businesses.

That's codified discrimination, and perhaps worse than apartheid.

Of course Bishop Desmond Tutu who lived through and fought Apartheid in South Africa also believes that what is going on with Israel and the occupied territories is similar to Apartheid.

 

So I take it you are unable or unwilling to provide proof of your allegation that Palestinian businesses which compete with Israeli businesses are not allowed and get destroyed.

You should probably read all of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analogy

Here is some of the reaction to Tutu's claims.

As far as Tutu goes, he is quite clearly an anti-Semite.

Can you imagine the uproar if he spoke about blacks or gays or Muslims that way?

He added, "the Jews thought they had a monopoly of God: Jesus was angry that they could shut out other human beings."

From a rather left-wing publication, some harsh criticism of anti-semite Desmond Tutu:

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/diane-bederman/whatever-happened-to-desmond-tutu_b_3450768.html

And so is glynch, for instance.

 

actually I did, when looking to see if there was something online referencing the military directive referred to by Chomsky. You can either read what's in his book about it or not. It doesn't matter to me.

Disappointing to read the stuff about Tutu

 

your false boycott isn't working!

Intel to invest 6 billion in an Israeli r&d center.
(intel already has 4 in Israel)

http://news.yahoo.com/us-chip-giant-intel-invest-6-bn-israeli-085700447.html

btw, AMD, IBM,APPLE,BROADCOM also, and lots more, built r&d centers in israel.
so good luck boycotting them to.


heres a list for you
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...th_research_and_development_centres_in_Israel

 

Should a U.S. company pat itself on the back for giving jobs to the Native American?