Exactly my point. If they're going to be hardheaded about Biggio and Bagwell because they played in the PED era, then they have to keep it consistent by not voting in the most accomplished Yankee in the past 20-30 years and two of the best hitters in the history of the game. Unfortunately, I can see a mountain of hypocrisy building up as these writers will vote for Jeter, Pujols and Griffey and say "well they were never named in any PED report nor were there ever any reason to believe they used".
Some people.... just deserve to be openly disparaged no matter what. <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>HOF voter didn't vote for Biggio because he believe he cheated...by wearing lots of body armor. Yup. <a href="http://t.co/081FYvYuF8">http://t.co/081FYvYuF8</a> (h/t <a href="https://twitter.com/jonahkeri">@jonahkeri</a>)</p>— Robert Ford (@raford3) <a href="https://twitter.com/raford3/statuses/421830816973332480">January 11, 2014</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
Was just thinking today that there is probably no one more irritated that PED talk dominates HOF voting than Pete Rose. I remember a decade or so ago, Pete Rose was all anyone could talk about come HOF voting time and it was always fun to see how many writers wrote his name in. Although I guess his admission of betting on the game followed by no change in his status as it pertains to the HOF probably tempered interest as well.
but aren't Rose's fifteen years gone? now it's up to the veterans' committee to right that particular injustice. sucks that by the time we finally have some Astros worthy of consideration, the Hall is a complete shell of its former self and pretty much a joke.
I'm a houston fan thru and thru,but I never thought I was watching an hof player when I watched biggio or bagwell. I thought they were very good players,but its the hall of fame,not the hall of good.
Bagwell: The second 1B to have an OPS plus of 130 or higher is 12 consecutive season. The other one was Lou Gherig. The only 1B since WW2 to have 400 HR and 200 steals. Only one other 1B is in the 400/100 club since WW2. Biggio: More doubles (668) than any other player to ever live. Had 50 doubles and 50 stolen bases in the same year. First player to do that since Tris Speaker in 1918. Set a record for lead off HRs. Was an All Star at three different positions. Over 3,000 hits for his career. ------------------------------------------------------ The above certainly indicates that both are hall worthy from a statistical perspective. They may not have been worthy of getting in on the first ballot, but that they haven't gotten in at this point is a joke.
Then you have no idea what a HOF player looks like. If it were just guys like Babe Ruther & Willie Mays, I'd agree with you, but it is not.
Biggio is 5th in all time doubles, most ever by a right hander though. Also, isn't Rickey Henderson the leader in leadoff HR's? And never made AS as an OF, just C and 2B. Not disagreeing with Biggio's being a HOF caliber guy, just don't want false facts floating around.
WAR is the best stat we have, no stat is perfect, but its as close as we can get. It encompasses a players offense, defense and baserunning. Since 1980, thats 34 years, no small sample, these are the best 8 year WAR averages. As you can see, in his prime Bagwell was very much an all time great. Long list Spoiler 8.6 Albert Pujols 8.5 Barry Bonds (Pre Roids) 8.0 Alex Rodriguez 7.2 Ken Griffey Jr. 7.1 Cal Ripken Jr. 7.0 Rickey Henderson 6.9 Mike Schmidt 6.6 Jeff Bagwell 6.5 Chase Utley(had no idea he was this good defensively) 6.1 Andruw Jones 6.1 Todd Helton 6.0 Frank Thomas 5.9 Kenny Lofton (doesn't get enough love) 5.8 Alan Trammell 5.8 Scott Rolen 5.8 Mike Piazza 5.8 Sammy Sosa 5.8 Ichiro Suzuki 5.8 Carlos Beltran 5.7 Miguel Cabrera 5.7 Carig Biggio 5.7 Chipper Jones 5.6 Ryne Sandberg 5.6 Gary Carter 5.6 Bobby Abreu 5.5 Robin Yount 5.5 Adrian Beltre 5.5 Jim Thome 5.5 Edgar Martinez 5.5 Vladimir Guerrero 5.3 Dale Murphy 5.3 Tim Raines 5.3 Manny Ramirez 5.2 Ivan Rodriguez 5.2 Barry Larkin 5.2 Derek Jeter 5.2 Larry Walker
I've never understood this. Caminiti in 1994 was .282/18/75, at age 31 in Houston. That was his career high in home runs. 2 years later in San Diego he's .326/40/130. His career OPS in Houston was .732. His career OPS in San Diego was .940. It looks to me like started juicing when he left. It's not just Cammy. Finley had a career high of 11 homers for Houston, he hit 30 and 28 in San Diego. Luis Gonzalez had a career OPS of .751 in Houston (and was similar in Chicago) before going to Arizona and hitting 57 home runs at age 33. Tony Gwynn was teammates with super-Finley and super-Cammy, but he doesn't get thrown under the bus. Cal Ripken and Mussina were teammates with super-Brady Anderson without suffering from the taint. I just don't think it's fair to paint every Astro of that era with that brush, and not do the same for everyone else with a suspicious teammate.
My bad. He holds the NL records for lead off HR. I also thought he had made the ASG as an OF in 04 or 05. He didn't.
Unfortunately it's this kind of lazy thinking and non research that is keeping some actual voters from voting for them. There's no way your much of a baseball fan or your memory just isn't very good. Both of their numbers stack up incredibly well against other hall of famers as evidenced quite substantially in this thread. The research is already done for you.
For Biggio, all you need to say is 3000 hits and that should be it. The fact that he's not in after multiples votes is a travesty. There are only 28 members of said club and the only reason that the other two retired players are in (Rose and Palmiero) is because they have huge black marks on their record. Biggio has none. Bagwell is a borderline call that's gonna be completely screwed by his the era he played in. He was never considered the best first baseman of his era but most years he was a close second.
Bagwell is less of a judgment call when you consider that he put up those numbers while playing his first 9 seasons in the Astrodome. Can you imagine what his numbers would have looked like in a less pitcher friendly park?
Of all the poor arguments the lazy writers make this one bothers me the most. Bagwell was the best NL 1st Baseman 5 times, 2nd best 5 times and the 3rd best in 1998 By WAR, he should have gone to 12 straight all star games from 1991-2001. They are compounding his disrespect during his career, by doing it in his post playing career. Instead the likes of John Kruk, and Sean Casey went to AS games.
Presuming a player's overall numbers would be different if they played in a different home ballpark is the ultimate "judgement" call.
No it isn't. You presume that offensive number would be higher outside of the Astrodome just like you assume that pitching statistics are inflated at Coors Field. It happens all the time. If Bagwell's numbers are hall worthy (they are). They are even moreso given his home ballpark for the majority of his career.
