Russell Westbrook has knee surgery AGAIN, out until after All-Star Break

We'll, sux for them. I can understand how they can hate PB. Remember when Tim Thomas rolled into Yao's knee? Lots of clutchfans members called for Tim's head as he "did it on purpose". "He is a thug and pulled Yao causing him to fall like that". Etc etc.

Having said that, there comes a time when you have to let it go. It's a risk all players take by playing pro ball. If one is objective, it is clear that PB did not do it on purpose. Was he overzealous? Yes, he is just wired that way.

Won't get too much sympathy from me after Yao an Mac injuries. I don't remember any teams feeling sorry for us. I do remember getting dogged by even crappy teams that smelled blood (when Yao and or Mac were out).

If we lose a star player God forbid, no one will feel sorry for us.

Screw them. Let's dog those SOBs

 

Noooooooooo


Fine

 

So how can you say the Rox stepped in another level if the discussion needed balance and you were on the "balancing side"? The way you keep posting now you make it out as if it was trade rip off of the century however if you were cautiously optimistic at the time the trade happened you couldn't have been jumping off the rafters in glee like the way you make it sound now.

Anyway, I was definitely on the "Harden's gonna own" camp however I am also still convinced that that OKC didn't get ripped off in that trade. Obviously, if OKC can turn back time they'd rather keep Harden (and probably trade WB instead), however the package they got for Harden is pretty good. Compare that to what Memphis got for Pau and what Orlando got for Dwight and you can definitely say DM paid through the nose for Harden.

The difference is that Lamb and Brad Stevens are raw while Harden's already developed his game, so the disparity is quite large. It's like if you traded Yao Ming in his prime for a rookie Dwight, obviously it would seem horrible in comparison. It was a long term move, Presti probably believed the current OKC won't be able to beat the Heat and so he made moves to retool, a smart decision IMHO considering both WB and KD are not even 25 at the time. Short term, Kmart was supposed to have been a stop gap poor man's Harden, however as a 6th man only seeing 15-30 mins a night (which is Harden's PT) he shouldn't have been missed too much. The problem is WB got injured, and Kmart got exposed for being a sucky player who only relies on foul calls to score (surprised the hell out of me too, thought he would be better than that). Now with WB looking like he's done as a max guy, I think the Harden trade may eventually lead to KD leaving OKC...hopefully to sign in Houston. Then again, if Lamb and Stevens turn out awesome in 2-3 years maybe KD stays to form a new big 3 with the other 2 guys.

 

So many people here like to judge the Harden trade with retrospect. Harden at the time was only averaging 16 pts, obviously he was capable of so much more however with the roster the way it is in OKC he can't get enough touches to make a max salary worthwhile. There's a reason he came off the bench behind Thabo, it's because with both KD and WB taking almost all of the perimeter touches a guy with his vast offensive skillset isn't needed, all they really want is a defender who hit open J's (aka Thabo).

Do you think paying J-Lin a max contract is feasible just to have him be the 6th man? If you can't say yes to that then you shouldn't keep saying you should pay 20M for Harden as a 6th man. And before someone goes off the rails talking about how much better Harden is consider this:

Harden's final season in OKC per 36:
19.3 pts, 4.2 assists, 4.2 rebs, 66 TS%

Jlin's current season per 36:
17.8 pts, 5.1 assists, 3.1 rebs, 63 TS%


Just like Harden, JLin is sacrificing for the team and coming off the bench behind Bev. Just like Harden, we all know Lin has potential, in fact he showed it during Linsanity when he was the focal point and beating teams like Miami and Lakers. Just like Harden, Lin can create and make people around him better. Lin today was OKC's Harden, do you think Lin deserves a max contract?

 

He probably came back too soon. Similar to Kobe.

Well, Bev is also injured and half of the team has been injured sometime this season, so we can just commiserate with them.

 

Huh? I WAS jumping off the rafters because it was such a great deal for the Rockets. They got a potential impact player (Harden) in exchange for above-average fluff (K-Mart). A snoozer lottery season with K-Mart as the best player turned into one with hope that could lay a foundation for the future. That is something to get very excited about.

The reason for caution was I wasn't sure how well Harden would react to being the #1 guy all the time. He attacked it with gusto and ended up producing the best that I thought was possible. The optimists that I felt got ahead of themselves turned out to be right.

I was ecstatic but thought some people went too far. Why is this hard to understand?

Rockets were winners in this trade by any sane definition. The effect on OKC is still to be determined. The 2014 playoffs may have the answer. If they win a championship the next 2 years, they are winners too.

roslolian, if you really believe Lin is as good as Harden by looking at per 36 min stats lines you need your head examined.

 

No I don't believe Lin is as good as Harden however that's based on what we know now. Harden as a first option last year maintained his efficiency of 60% TS while upping his scoring from 16 pts to 25 pts WHILE being the target of defenses night in and night out. So basically you're talking about Harden going up several levels from his role in OKC to his role as a franchise guy in Houston. If he kept up his current production in HOuston, then his TS% would have gone down as the defenses became harder, and if he played like this in OKC then he would've scored at an even higher percentage because he had WB and/or KD taking the heat off him.

But what if you didn't know this fact? If Harden played in OKC the way he's been playing now then OKC wouldn't have let him go, at the time though a lot of people felt he wasn't at the level of either WB or KD. Harden at the time was known as a person with good potential, but I didn't see any outcry or backlash for having him sit in the bench behind Thabo Sefalosha.

So basically Harden in OKC was pretty much seen as Lin is today, no one (except LOFs) see Lin as better than Harden and Howard, and his production right now is a mirror of Harden's production in OKC. Just like Harden, Lin is being used as a 6th man/Manu style shocktrooper and he creates for the 2nd unit including Bev/Brooks, Casspi, Asik, Smith etc. Just like Harden, we all know Lin has star material, at his very peak during Linsanity, Lin was scoring over 20 pts a night and hitting clutch shots, it's part of the reason why people called it Linsanity. You can't even say Harden did something for OKC that Lin doesn't do for Houston today, because their production and skillset are identical. And yet almost everyone here will trade Lin for somebody like Ellis on an expiring contract and a guaranteed lottery pick for next year.

 

Also as an aside I don't why you think winning a ring in the next 2 years is a good condition, as I mentioned the rewards from the trade won't be reaped until 2-3 years from now when both Lamb and Stevens grow into their own.

OKC with Harden/Ibaka/KD/WB couldn't even beat Miami when the team was new and only had LBJ/Dwade/Bosh as the good players. Now that LBJ is into his absolute prime and surrounded by guys like Ray Allen, Battier and Birdman, OKC has no chance, Harden or no Harden.

 

The definition of the role is really irrelevant. The better question is what were you getting for 30-35 mins per game worth the salary?

Harden was playing 30+ minutes per game. Starter or 6th man, he was playing starter minutes. And he was sacrificing part of his game to make it fit with KD and Westbrook.

And personally I thought Harden would more than earn his $15M. And I thought that Harden would average around 20-23 PPG. $15M/year is a fair price for 20-23 PPG. That he's posting 25+ PPG is bonus value.

As for Lin's contract, Lin isn't a max contract in any way except for the final year pay check. And that's mostly money that you can consider owed to Lin for services *already* rendered.

The Rockets got Lin on lay away... low money down ($5m/year for the first 2 years) and the balance on his last year. When Lin's contract expires, it's highly unlikely that he'll get a max contract... however he will likely get a contract in line with his cap hit, IE, $8-10M/year.

People asking whether Lin is worth $15M are completely ignoring that Lin played on discount for the first 2 years, and effectively was lending (deferring) part of his salary to the Rockets until the 3rd year.

Lin's contract is not any different than hiring a painter for a job and offering them 1/3 at the start, and 2/3 on completion. You paid Lin $25M for 3 years of work, how it's structured in terms of payment is irrelevant as you're really hiring Lin for $8.3M/year. Complaining about paying him what he's owed at the end instead of up front is what people are really whining about, as if his last year in a vacuum was representative of what his future contracts are going to be in terms of his salary.

Now, if you're arguing that 30 minutes per game of Lin isn't worth $8.3M, that's an entirely different argument. Personally I think he's playing up to his contract if not a bit above.

You just don't get a decent starting caliber PG for much less than $8M/year, especially one who also fills seats.

 

I thought the whistle had not yet blown when the Beverley collision occurred?

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/5-on-5-131227-RW/russell-westbrook-surgery

3. Should the NBA be worried about injuries in the league?

Adande: Sure, the league can worry, but what's that going to accomplish? There are no rule changes that can overcome basic biomechanics. Injuries happen to everyone in this sport eventually. If it seems there are more frequent and more serious injuries, it's due in part to improved diagnostic tools that reveal major damage that players would have pushed on through the discomfort in the past. If there's anything to be changed from Westbrook's case it could be a harsher penalty for any injury caused by action after the whistle blows, such as the Patrick Beverley play that initially damaged Westbrook's knee.

 

It was NOT after the whistle at all, it was just before the whistle and Westbrook did the same thing to Lin earlier in the year.

He got hurt it happens...bummer for them.

DD

 

They have "no chance" because you say so? OK, I guess that ends the discussion.

Your assumptions aren't facts. You have to play the games. It's two years later and dynamos like Ray Allen, Shane Battier and Birdman have declined while KD, WB, Harden, Ibaka are all better.

Battier? Birdman? Seriously?

 

No retrospect here. Morey thought he had a star player once he landed him. Presti should have known Harden was a star. OKC knew they had 4 special players. They just didn't want to pay all of them.

Harden was clearly worth a max salary. Especially if the rumors are true of him agreeing to their offered amount as long as it came with a trade kicker. If you get a star who is willing to be a team player and come off the bench you keep him. Who doesn't want the luxury of bringing a happy star level player off the bench to feast on 2nd units? Didn't they get to the Finals with that formula?

If J-Lin was a top 10 talent like Harden is then yes, and my team would be that much better if I had the luxury of bringing a to 10 talent off the bench. Especially if that top 10 talent had the type of attitude to allow it.

Lin/Harden comparisons are beyond silly. Let me know when Lin can make a US Dream Team roster, get a max salary based on his basketball play or is considered a top 10 player.

 

I'm surprised you haven't ignored roslolian

 

i've had him for about a month now. he's been putting up good numbers from the bench. definitely glad he's starting now :grin:

 

Karma for stealing their team from a proud Seattle franchise, a real NBA city.

 

I got westbrook and reggie..


so while they both were wrecking I was chillin, now reggie has some serious work to do to keep my team competitive :grin:

 

How about amnesty Kendrick "Somebody pissed in my cornflakes" Perkins?

 

How much better are KD, WB and Ibaka last year compared to the year before? I've watched all OKC games last year and haven't really noticed a significant development in any of them from the previous year, in fact this was shown when the Harden-led Rockets took the WB-less OKC to 7 games in the 1st round. With WB out you'd think Ibaka would step up, but his production more or less remained the same and the burden fell on Kmart's shoulders instead. The only guy who developed significantly was Harden, and only because he left his 6th man role in OKC to go to Houston where he can maximize his abilities.

On the other hand, Ray Allen, Shane Battier and Birdman are all miles better than the supporting cast Wade, Bosh and LBJ had the year they won their first ring. IIRC the only good players on that run were Chalmers, Mike Miller and Battier, this time though Allen and co. provided enough firepower and D that Miami was able to win games even during the times both Dwade and Bosh layed goose eggs, something that was not possible before.

And it's not like Miami vs OKC was a tough matchup, after getting surprised once Miami beat them down in the playoffs 3-0. Add the better supporting cast+LBJ's own improvement and I'm pretty sure Miami still wins even with Harden and WB healthy. You're right these are all assumptions, and you have to play the games. However considering LBJ is currently playing the most dominant bball since Shaq Prime/MJ, I am pretty confident when I say OKC wouldn't have had a chance last year. Maybe if OKC had a 7 foot paint defender like Spurs or Indiana, however Perkins has been totally ineffective and Ibaka is more of a shotblocker and one-on-one defender, and LBJ handles those guys with ease (see Bulls with Noah and Bucks with Sanders).

 

I think they knew he was a star, they just didn't know he was a superstar. It was hard to say because they probably thought with both KD and WB already getting the max, getting a 3rd perimeter player as your max guy was overkill, you really want your stars to be a mix of front court and backcourt.

It's not just having a star, it's also about financials. In terms of cap, you only had 55M and yet you had KD and WB making 30M combined and Ibaka all set to make 12M. Even if they amnestied Perkins, signing Harden to another max contract means the team will be over the 55M tax with just 4 guys, nevermind Thabo and the rest of the 11 guys on the roster. IIRC the owners wanted to bite the bullet anyway and pay the tax but Presti made the call to just take the goodies we offered instead.

So even when Harden was coming off the bench you already thought he was a top 10 player? My top 10 two years ago would include LBJ, Dwight, KD, Parker, DRose, Paul, Tim Duncan, Dirk, Love, LMA and that's not even including guys like Kobe, WB, Melo and Marc Gasol. Who would you bump off that list to include Harden who was only playing 30 mins a night in OKC?