I know that there are some who would love it if we could snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in Iraq, but No Thanks. We did not go to war only to hand Iraq over to Iran's mullahs. Not gonna happen. The Kurds don't want that, and we owe them big. The Sunnis don't want that, and we must be merciful in our victory by taking their interests to heart. Not all of the Shiites want that; many of them merely want to get on with business and make some money. Some here automatically assume that simply because approximately 70% or so of Iraq is Shiite, then they will institute a Shiite theocracy when given the chance with elections. Why would they do that? Remember that this nation has been fairly secular for about 30 years. That does not mean that there will not be a large expression of (Shiite) devotion - that is to be expected from a people who have had their religious options repressed for so long. But remember that these people are used to living the material life. The first thing they did? Looting. That came before the religious proclaimations... These people want to do business. The *Iraqi people* do not want to join Iran, which an Iraqi theocracy would effectively mean. If Shiite mullahs are running Iraq, then they will - 100% chance - form an Islamic Union with Iran. First two states of such a union, with more to follow if the mullahs have any say in it. Problem is, as I have stated, the Iraqi people as a whole do not want that. The vast majority of them just want to get on with life. To finally live after so long... They have seen Saddam's tyranny. They look next door and see the mullahs' tyranny. They are not stupid, and they have no more use for tyranny, be it Saddam's, Iran's, or ours. They want to be free, and they will be. Iran is meddling, as expected. Is it any coincidence that at the same time that these Shiite clerics in the south - an area Iran has always coveted - are denouncing our presence, that Iran is sending in its so-called "al-Badr Brigades"? These units are essentially terrorist cells who have access to conventional military equipment, and who are charged with inciting unrest among Shiite populations. Coincidence? Did anyone think that Iran would just respect our presence and stay neutral? Ah, I'm getting ahead of myself... The time and place for dealing with Iran is some time off. In the meantime, just sit back, let them shoot themselves in the foot, and watch the show...
Blade, Let's see where we are in 10 years ok? My guess is that we will be long gone from Iraq...and a more stable middle east will be the result. The rest at this point is pure conjecture, heck none of us really knows what is going to happen in Iraq, and history is pointless concerning the debate in reality. A lot of new ground is being broken, and it is a risky plan for sure, but we have tried maintaining status quo and proping up friendly dictators and all that got us was a bloody nose. This is a new day...let's hope we get it right this time. DD
I do think it's too soon to tell, and I hope everything goes smoothly in Iraq. I agree any arguments we have now about it are based on the hypothetical.
I will say this: If we do not hand Iraq's political future over to the Iraqi people within the next five years, then I will turn against this administration (just in time for a presidential vote). Democracty *must* result from our invasion; otherwise the whole thing was just an exercise in Cold War style "replace the dictator who's giving you problems with a friendlier dictator"... I do think that we have broken with that paradigm, and I do think that we really do intend to institute a real democracy there. I think that the administration realizes that the only way to avoid another 9/11 (or a score of them, or worse) is to fundamentally change the social and political dynamics within the muslim - particularly the Arabic - domains. The only way they can change that will positively affect us would be to institute an understanding of democratic processes and a basic appreciation of individual rights, and most importantly - a realization that individual human beings are important and vital components of social well-being. Only from that realization will a rule-of-law system evolve. Without a solid rule-of-law system they will be vulnerable to terrorism spawning. Currently, they operate under a system of "whatever Dictator-X says is the law" system. That system not only allows ideas like "it's OK to torture people" and "they're all civilians" to propagate, it also removes the concept of personal responsibility for one's actions from the equation. We need to change that... In short, we need to give the Arabic/muslim world Western concepts of personal responsibility, civic responsibility, social morality, rule of law by consent, popular consent... A whole host of Western concepts. They need them like a sick man needs an injection of penacillin. The Iraq invasion was the needle.
we need to give the Arabic/muslim world Western concepts of personal responsibility, civic responsibility, social morality, rule of law by consent, popular consent... A whole host of Western concepts. They need them like a sick man needs an injection of penacillin. The Iraq invasion was the needle. What arrogance. What ignorance. I would expect this from the Rev Graham Junior or Jerry Falwell. On what basis do you say that Iraqis or Arabs and Muslims in general don't have a concepts of "personal responsibility", "civic responsibility", "social morality". This is just racist crap and xenophobia dressed up as Republicanism and patriotism. Unfortunately Treeman is representative of the secular side of the Bush cabal. How many of these subhumans with no moraliy should we kill in order to prevent a theocracy? Here's another cite to hundreds of thousands of Iraqis demostrating to end US occupation. reuters
Oh well after just a week or two, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis who weren't loyal to Sadam Hussein demonstrating that they want us to end the occupation. These were the folks the neocons said were supposed to be cheering us at this stage. No biggie. Just some crazy axis of evil loving Iranianian influenced folk, we can handle it with our can- do- GI- Joe attitude. What's more we can do it without being oppressors and while still being seen as the beacon of democracy by more than just a few blind Republican loyalists in the US. The whole world will condemn us for suppressing those Shiites in the name of democracy, but no biggie who needs the world? Just get rid of Reuters and Al Jazeera and let Fox spin it. It will be for Arabs/Muslim's own good as we teach them Western values of honor, love, honesty, empathy, love for yourfamily and country, the desire to work and be productive and any other positive virtue you can think of that we have and they lack, of course. This just isn't going to work out the way the neocons planned. Guess what? Iraqi Shiite Muslims and Sunnis together just won't stand for such Middle East policies as us busting OPEC, taking the oil for cheap and according to some wish lists, sending it to Israel cheap. Treeman and others cite the Kurds, who are happier with us at the moment. I'm pretty certain that the Kurds want the best price for their oil, too. We propose keeping the Kurds in Iraq. in an autonomous region. Only a stongman like Tito or Sadam could accomplish this. We have already seen understandable rage and the beginnings of ethnic cleansing as the Kurds take revenge on Arabs in Northern Iraq. US troops are currently suppressing this. However,when we double cross them with the Turks on their goal of independence, how happy will they be with us? Will they still refrain from revenge against Arabs in their territory? What is happening is characterized by Treeman as just leftist America haters hoping to snatch victory from defeat. In reality it has long been predicted that this would happen. We first heard about these possibilities in 1991 when Cheny, Bush I, Powell, Scwartkopf etc. gave these as reasons for not taking over Baghdad. Iraqi-Israel pipeline?
When is the majority in Iraq supposed to finally come around to the democratic system. If we force them to accept the our system its only going to make them more stubborn.
Pgabrial, Not if the new system improves the quality of life of most Iraqis.....right now they have no idea what democracy means, and have no idea about how it will improve their life. They will.....look at the Kurds, they are thriving under self rule, and so will the rest of Iraq. Glynch, Good to see the Iraqi's excercising their new found freedoms isn't it. Of course if it was up to you none of this would be happening. DD
Treeman, I truly respect you saying this and I will state that if in five years, Iraq is a democracy by its on governing then I will admit my skepticism of the administration was wrong. I honestly hope you are correct and that I am wrong. Having visited many third world nations, I see the plight of those who have never been able to grasp freedom. Hopefully we can spread this universal concept of liberty to the world and not change dictators as we have done in the past.
I wonder what the compromise between the "mayor" and the US is going to be - we'll start city hall in a new place and just ignore him? http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A25508-2003Apr23.html
Humorous(at least to me) suggestion. We could compromise by bringing in chinese advisers to teach them the glories of atheist communism. Then once they brutally suppress the extremists and accept their lot in life we can slowly transition them into favored trading partner status and build McDonalds in Baghdad. Once we get them to start watching American Idol the transformation into successful democracy will be complete.
The communists are alive and well in Iraq: http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/special_packages/iraq/5695923.htm If we're lucky it'll be like Israeli or Italian democracy, so fractious hardly anything gets done by the government.
