"You need to just watch it, and think what was likely supposed to happen" Ok and saying that Cuttino should have hit an open man or a guard should have passed to an open Mo Taylor instead of taking the shot off the dribble in a difficult situation himself is not saying "what was likely suppossed to happen" then what is? Also, the point I am trying to get across which doesnt seem to be finding its way across is that when you get trapped or doubled teamed, you have to swing the ball and get it to the open man for a good shot. You still havent answered whether or not you think its good for Mobley to force a shot on a double team instead of swinging the ball. Thats the whole point of the observation here. Do you want Mobley to try and swing the ball to the open man or force it? This is not terribly complicated, when a team traps and doubles, someone is open, swing the ball and hit him for an open shot. This is basic basketball; I dont understand why you are having so many issues with it saying Mobley cant pass out of it. Btw, nice little unnecessary cheap shot you took at The Cat. ------------------ Check out the Best Source for Draft Info Draftsource.net [This message has been edited by MManal (edited November 30, 2000).]
" ... Patience ..." Agreed. Wholeheartedly. " ... NBA coaches have to get 5 running in harmony with half the practice time, and those players have to execute each possession with half the shot-clock time..." Granted. But the real difference (with only a handful of exceptions) is that Pro players have that very same college experience behind them. They are also the cream of the college crop (arguably the best of the best) and should have experienced the basic fundamentals (set plays) that most Pro games are built on. Furthermore, although a different game, the support (coaches & teammates) and the knowledge they have gained previously has to make the transition to the Pro Game much easier than the jump from High School to College. Pro's many more games to hone their "gametime game" in real game exposure. " ... Motion is very difficult in the NBA ..." Hey, no kidding. Variations are even markedly evolutionary. Certainly Season to season, sometimes game to game. But learning the schemes is again fundamental. "You go here. He goes there." It is not learned during a couple of games but progressively put into practice over several games. I understand that. The thing that strikes me, is a night (a dozen or so games into the season) when everyone seems to click, then another night when not one, but several, get completely out of position, repeatedly. There are only about a dozen motion offenses, and the rest are just reaction plays to the response they ellicit from the defenders. Some nights they are not even getting the initial placements down. That is a drop in the learning curve that I would not expect from seasoned professionals, irregardless of whether they have played together for an extended period of time, or not. " ... I am seeing less and less "high run iso" in the 1st through 3rd quarters ..." Actually I attribute that to our opponents learning to react to our game and breaking it up more by trapping real early and a lot quicker. And, the Rox inability to effectively counter that fast, early trap, or double team. Moreso than any specific Rocket plan to limit the ISO's. For instance, they have pretty well closed off Mobes explosive baseline move and he is getting awfully predictable in swinging to the top and drive center lane while others are standing around. RT sees that. Hell, there are Afganistan refugees in Tibet that can see that! LOL " ... (Hakeem) can just ruin an entire possession without even touching the ball ... " I was impressed that Hakeem has found a niche (okay, a small one) in the team's game this year. I feel the real problem, however, is that the ball handlers, particularily Francis, have not discovered Hakeem's usefulness. Personally, if fingers are pointed I would look at the teams inability to find players at strategic (maybe key is a better word) periods during the game. Overmatches inside, with Hakeem on a young center get largely ignored. Mo Taylor is a very active forward, particularly on weakside recovery. He stands there alone as the weakside opponent goes out to support his defender at the strong. Taylor moves advantageously and fluidly, then watches and waits, as the Wizard drives and is stopped, or Mobes drives and the ball swatted away, or it is punched out to Mooch or Francis for a trey. An absolute waste of an opportunity. RT then yells at them. Shakes his head. And we can look forward to these same players forcing the ball into Mo or Collier or Hakeem to satisfy RT's complaint. Turnovers are the result. Mainly because they have missed the point of his argument. Position, move, observe, react, score. " ... Couldn't you put Hakeem on the off side of the ball 10-12 feet out ready to go to the offensive glass and basically just stay out of the way of the motion of the other 4? ..." Well, I'll answer that. I think. First, Hakeem is used as a decoy at times, and there is a certain measure of pulling defenders away that is advantageous (Shaq, Ewing) in a motion game. Sometimes it is a useless endeavour (Divac, Garnett, etc...)But a motion scheme is a choreographed set of moves so that each of the elements move within specific patterns and the strike or scoring comes off the reaction of the defenders to that motion. Having Hakeem out of the motion, by decoy design, eliminates one more defensive element, but it also eliminates one more potential mismatch, missed assignment advantage or out of place defender. Having a slower player (Hakeem) out of the mix because he cannot move fast enough (and his defender being faster) within the pattern, effectively makes it a 4 against five contest. This gives the defenders a better chance to recover or react from any loss of stability that the Rox are trying to create. Motion denied. " ... frisbee ..." Well, come to think of it yea, I guess so! Dang, I started to answer the above posts, when there were only two there, and it took several time out delays to get it posted. Server must be on Florida Recount Delay. [This message has been edited by oeilpere (edited November 29, 2000).]
Please don't degrade this quality thread by taking cheap shots like that. You know better than that. ------------------ Draftsource.net
OP has it pretty much on target. More assists and fewer turnovers. Here are the Rockets assist per turnover stats: Mobley 1.22 Francis 1.62 W. Williams 1.30 Taylor 0.50 Olajuwon 0.94 S. Anderson 0.96 Ke. Thomas 0.52 Bullard 3.00 Collier 0.63 Norris 2.53 Here's how they compare with some of their contemporaries: 1 STOCKTON 3.62 1 STOUDAMIRE 2.28 1 S. NASH 2.42 2 KOBE 1.36 2 IVERSON 1.70 2 M. FINLEY 1.53 3 R.LEWIS 0.59 3/4/5 GARNETT 0.98 3 NOWITSKI 1.26 3 STOJAKOVIC 1.10 4 DUNCAN 0.88 4 WEBBER 1.24 4 JYD WILLIAMS 0.54 5 SHAQ 1.36 5 RATLIFFE 0.27 Moral to the story...big guys can and will turn it over. PG's & SG's have to 1) hold on to it and 2) dish it to your teammates in a GOOD position for them to take a high % shot. I can here the arguments already, so before you post give this some thought. Ever played a pickup game and run your a** off to get open and played solid D? What happened to your game when you were teamed with a ball hog? How long before you wanted that game to end so that you could choose up new teams? ------------------ GATER
Gater Precisely . . . If you busting ya *ss on D and rebounding but get 2 shots a game. You won't even run to the offensive end. Why run the motion offense if all you gonna do is run. But i think this convo is about purist and not taking into account the actually players and that they are doing. I dislike forced shots. Period. BUT I cannot blame cuttino and then forgive KT. if it is not their fault. [getting ball at half court with 1 seconds on the S.Clock is a forced shot that ain't their fault] Rocket River ------------------
MManal, I'm not having issues with him not swinging. I agree with you. I have said I agree with you 3 times now. You continue to say I have "issues" with it. I don't. That is why I think you are being contentious to the point of arguing, while I'm trying to pick your brain, and just getting fundamental bball regurgitations. I like the objective opinions I read from you, and oeilpere has to be the most objective season-ticket holder we have on this board. My fault in our exchange is I never fully acknowledged where I agree with you. There is no denying Mobley can and should pass more (although I think his dishing once he commits to the rim is underrated). There is no denying Rudy clings to the 2 Shakes. There is no denying rollers lose interest when not rewarded for a good pick and read. There is no denying you and The Cat called a winner in Collier. There is no denying that Mo is not getting the ball in low post position. There is no denying Francis attempts to beat double teams by going baseline, too much. That is all in agreement. And you have nailed it all. When I read posts from people like you who I think are watching the whole court and enjoy game breakdowns, I have a tendency to go straight to more critical discourse without first going through the pleasantries of acknowledging each other's opinion. Although I certainly did try in your thread, and this one. What frustrates me is I agree with your read on Boston, but I wanted to know what you thought about there being more aggressive traps on Mobley this year, best exemplified in the Boston game. I wanted to hear your take, then lead that into a discussion about how Rudy is responding to increased pressure on Mobley--we have the 2 Mo Shakes and starting with the Indiana game, I'm seeing a true pnr with weakside flex. But, we got stuck on the issue with Traps shouldn't prevent him from finding the open man. I'll admit I got frustrated with the discussion. Can you understand why I got frustrated? It wasn't about disagreeing with you. It's like I can't break out of this bbs polarization, since I sound like I defend Rudy and Mobley all the time. What is ironic is I was a very vocal Rudy-basher before I came to the bbs, for all the reasons that Dreamshake states. Likewise, I was breast-fed Bobby Knight's Motion Offense while learning the game in Illinois. And I also ran Kansas transition in High School. I hate NBA isolation. But I love players with fire and cockiness like Mobley. I want more than anyone on this board for the Rockets to improve ball movement. I just have more patience, so it sounds like I don't care as much. I consider myself more realistic on how long it can take for motion and flex-es to be effective against NBA defense. It is so ironic to me that I'm dubbed a defender of Rudy and lover of isolation. I am mainly interested in figuring out Rudy's system and game plan. The player execution is why I have tickets, but figuring out the system is my motivation to post here. rocketsfan34--Hey, glad to see you post. Where have you been. Sorry for degrading with frustration. Regarding The Cat, anyone on the bbs who keeps calling people "stupid", "insane" and "idiots", is open to shots from the gallery. He can handle it. Besides, I agree with him until he tries to apply contrived logic based on stats.
Good, got the pleasantries out of the way. Now let's talk. In Mobley's case, it is pretty evident what was supposed to happen, since there are very few options in the 2 Shakes. I think it is better for me to say "what could happen" as the team grows. On the pnr, there are ways to beat a trap without forcing a pass over it. In Sloan's offense, Stockton has the option to dribble out of the trap to the middle. If Mobley does this, he will still have the roller open on the right block, and now he has the left block visible and a weakside entry to flex to. That is what I am looking for, not a lob. If he has the crisp pass to the roller, do it by all means. If the trap is blocking that, get into the middle of the court via dribble. Note, I'm talking about the pnr roll here. As for the swing pass from the 2 shakes, look at the top of the key. You will see that swing pass denied as much as not, as the double often does not come from the closest defender, or they all rotate towards Mobley, leaving only skip passes, not swing passes. Now as for Francis finding the low post player,,,he has many more opportunities to do this than Mobley. This is where it gets fun to watch. Is Francis waving off the low post player to start a play, or is he ball-hogging? If he's a ball-hog, what's with the 16ppg? Should we even be looking for PFs calling for low post ISOs at the demise of Motion? Is Rudy trying to get them to do something else? The season will tell...I love this game. [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited November 30, 2000).]
I keep reading all this "recipe for success" stuff: ball movement, well-rounded offense, motion, team defense. My question is, where is this "recipe for disaster"? I was promised a disaster recipe in this thread, wasn't I? Cmon, tell me about the secrets that the Bulls and Warriors use. Inquiring minds want to know! [This message has been edited by SamCassell (edited November 30, 2000).]
Can I have a follow-up question? Mobes...why do you say Mobes? You were responding to a question about 1st and 3rd Q. He doesn't get many minutes in those quarters. There is a different game plan in these quarters, imo. Hey, you don't have to answer now. I'm seeing no ISO, or even attempts at it, in these quarters. But I only have two eyes. What do you see?
I apologize for such a lengthy time away from this thread, but it hectic at work and I just got a new puppy for the kids, and believe me ... living by the bowel cycle of an excited Lhasa Apso and his vet's post surgical recommendations is exhausting. (EXAMPLE: ........ # 37. Walk the patient for short periods of time approximately every 2 hours for the first 72 post-op hours. #38. Encourage fluids between walks and offer small amounts of dry, warmed food. #39 Expect intermittent nausea and vomiting for the first 72 post-op hours. # 40. Pull hair out at your roots to relieve stress associated with previous 39 recommendations) Will answer soon. ------------------
I fully agree with Mobley needing to dribble out of the trap to get the ball to the roller in the corner. Thus far in the season, I have noticed that he has not been very capable or unwilling to do that like in the Boston game. Once he can develop that, I think the offense in general will start to look much smoother atleast in terms of screen and roll. What I want to watch for over the next few wks is how often the Rockets go to the screen and roll play and how effective it is with Collier out of the lineup. As far as the waving off issues, its not just Steve, its both Steve and Cuttino that are guilty of it. It could be Rudy wanting to run something else, but I sure hope it isnt. I think at some point you have mix in some low post options and not continuously run guard oriented plays. This is part of the reason I like the way Portland plays so much is b/c they have a variety of different styles in their offensive sets. When the Rockets won their two championships, they did a mixture of screen and roll plays with the dump it in play. ------------------ Check out the Best Source for Draft Info Draftsource.net
Just to clarify my understanding (as I remember it from far, far too long ago): The Use Of Terms: The philosophy of the coach is the focus of a game plan and largely the action of particular "named" sets. In short, what Phil Jackson calls a "triangle" may in fact be an augmented form of the "flex". The Jazz may use the "pick and roll" extensively, but it is getting closer and closer to the screen-motion-screen offense of the Pacers. Some of these changes or uses of the terms are predicted by the players on the roster. Reggie Miller heroically lives on the screen-motion screen. John and Karl have embarassed many with the pick and roll. If Phil did not have Kobe they wouldn't be even talking triangle this or that. The Rockets employ a number of offensive sets. They use pick and rolls, iso's etc ... . But the motion set is what could be best described as the Rockets basic offense. If for lack of any other label. Unfortunately, a true motion offense should have a predominance of fast pass shooters. Guys who can grip-it and rip-it. Or, J shooters with great turnarounds. Or, passers that have eyes in the back of their head. Or, five swift footed gazelles. Or, scorers that can readily create off the dribble. Well, we may have a couple of those, but they are few and far between. The Motion Offense: The object is to have each player physically move within a set pattern in concert with his teammates. Specific points along each singular pattern are designed to prompt a reaction from the defender. Passes are made (or even attempted/faked) to escalate the defenders' reaction ... but the focus is on waiting for the defender to critically react to the movement either of the ball or the offenders. That reaction could be stepping out of (bypassing, leaving, widening) a passing lane or losing distance (created by the offense increasing separation) on the man to man cover. For dominant (and speedy) power forward teams frequently the defender simply "forgetting" that the zone behind them has been cleared out and they are on the wrong side of a quick big man. For success, the ball carrier (irregardless of who that is) must read the defense after each pass, each feint or each pull. The pass is then made to the offender who has sufficiently upset the opportunity scales in his favor. Ideally this leads to another pass after the recovery and yet even another pass as the defenders should now be playing "catchup". Scenario Example: For those spatiallly-minded it should go something like this: >>>>>>> half court possession with 18 seconds left, PG at top of perimeter 12 o'clock spot, he passes to SG on right wing, PG clears lane and moves circular to left, SF moves past PG on left and goes to left corner, Center leaves lane and goes to 12 o'clock perimeter spot vacated by PG, PF goes to low post (paint block) and goes left swiftly towards corner where SF waits until PF is close to one body length away, as the PF gets closer the SF also goes to top perimeter using the PF's defender to pick his own defender. While this is happening the ball carrier (SG) holds his defender and assesses each of the other teammates. He can pass to the PG when he cleared, pass to the PG when he buttonhooked after the clear. He can pass to the PF if his defender threats or comes to double team. Depending on the passing lane coverage, the SG can pass to the corner on two occasions, or round it to the perimeter.<<<<<<<<<<<<< True motion in today's pro game dictates that several passes must occur to get the best opportunity. There is our problem. Rockets Use of The Motion: Up to this point, my real displeasure is the lack of patience with the read. The ball carrier getting predictable or not waiting for things to develop. (Of course it gets difficult if a press or trap has knocked considerable time off the clock and he must do something sooner than desired.) In the above example, six or seven seconds have elapsed (i.e. we have 10 - 12 seconds left) and this is where we fall apart. The ball carrier pulls back to an ISO and telegraphs to everyone that is what he will do. Or, takes an ill-advised rushed shot. Or, he feints right and crosses to the middle for a predictable drive up the center. Or he forces a pass across two passing lanes and the defenders turn our opportunity into their fastbreak. Or, he drops a lazy pass to the perimeter with the same result. All the ball carriers are guilty of this. RT's Philosophy: Rudy wants the ball conrolled at all times. Some coaches, like Bobby Knight, like to key his team on the conversion opportunities when defense converst to offense or offense to defense. Take the opportunity and kill the other guy with it. Dean Smith's key is holding the ball a long time and simply out-positioning a defense until they give you the basket or they have to foul you. Rudy's philosophy is control. Since he has been coaching, he keys on ball control. He feels: There is only one ball. We got it. You don't. We'll hold as long as we can and we will wait patiently for an opportunity to stick it in there. So having a roster of impatient motion players has got to be frustrating. IMHO:I do not think it is a matter of unlearning bad habits. Or, the motion-reaction-motion schemes being difficult to comprehend or remember. I personally think the Rockets, being young have not learned patience. Have not completely bought into this being a team game yet. Have not completely trusted that if they did what RT draws up, it will work. For absolutely certain, they do not have a central leader, the vocal and take no bull leader, who can bridge some of the gaps in this leaarning lag. (Sorry for the length of the post.) PS: HP and guys - I will get back to your very astute observations shortly. I had to write this while stuck in traffic. Again! Cheers. ------------------ [This message has been edited by oeilpere (edited November 30, 2000).]
Thanks for the Drive By Post OP ------------------ "It's incredible to see how he [Mobley] can beat his guy one-on-one every time. That is a tremendous talent. The combination of Steve and Cuttino, I think, is wonderful in the backcourt." --the Dream
Hey P Wrote: " ... Can I have a follow-up question? Mobes...why do you say Mobes? You were responding to a question about 1st and 3rd Q. He doesn't get many minutes in those quarters. There is a different game plan in these quarters, imo. The original question was about high ISO's. The premiere ISO player on the Rockets is Mobes. That's why I mentioned him. He may have been restricted to only brief play time during those quarters (1st and 3rd) during the first eight-ten games, but no longer. RT uses him in all four quarters now. He gets better than 30 minutes (and growing) a game as a bench player (and rightly so). From my observation he has those spread over all four quarters within the last seven games. He definitely gets plus time in the fourth, about 8-10 minutes. But that leaves between 20-22 minutes in the other three and that has been fairly evenly distributed.
