Jeremy Lin and Beverley, who fits better with the team and James Harden

I posted this earlier. I could go on further, but it's basically all the same.

I'm not sure how much time it takes to realize that defense was being ignored. I guess that's different for everyone. Once you do that, it clear the OP's analysis is incomplete regardless of what the defensive picture shows.

 

So, where are the defensive stats to say that PB deserves to start over Lin? There are stats out there that say Lin is the better defensive player. The only conclusion is that there is not enough data on PB to justify starting over Lin, who was the starter for 82 games of a playoff team that no one expected to reach the playoffs even after Harden was acquired.

 

I agree with durvasa.

Here's how I see this thread has evolved.

1) TTNN provides useful stat for discussion.
2) People see that it talks about pro-Lin so try to discredit it WITHOUT providing any evidence or research. Just complain about fallacy this and fallacy that but with NO counter argument.
3) TTNN was kind enough to address these concerns by providing MORE well researched data
4) Repeat 2-3

I appreciate the effort TTNN, but it seems like it's all gone to waste with all these Lin sensitive people.

 

did you even read the post above yours?

 

Totally agree. well said, TTNN

 

Another way to look at this, and I think the OP has said this too, is that the thread is as much about whether Harden and Lin fit together on offense, as it is about the Bev/Lin comparison. A lot was made in the press last year, especially at the start of the season, about their supposed incompatibility, and it was all about their offense.

I have enjoyed the thread too. Thanks TTNN.

 

I think this comparison deserve another thread. You may put opponent ppp( looks like one of your evaluating defense variable )with Bev and Lin case. But OP still logically right in offense side. And pls read Op carefully.
team synergy is always hard to define and interpret, even try to define what variables you want to choose is quite subjective .

 

All of TTNN's statements were clearly based on offense. He may have started with incomplete statements, but at least he goes and revises his analysis as new points are brought up. If you don't agree with him about the offensive aspect of the game. Fine. It's ok, bring up stats to counter his arguments about the offense.

What you are doing is like saying, your argument about the offense has no merit because of defense. What the OP is saying is clearly based on offense. His conclusion, therefore, should only be applied to the offense.

When people jump on him about defense, it has nothing to do with his original argument. And when people do this, it appears like they don't have a valid counter argument so they try to change the debate.

Like I said, if you want to discuss defensive impact, fine. Start your own thread about defensive fit. But don't come onto a thread clearly about offense and whine about how someone didn't mention defense. Although, the title of the tread can be misleading, you've got to know what the thread was originally intended to discuss after reading the OP.

 

He makes sweeping conclusions based on a small subset of data. In fact, it's not even all offense, but shooting. Which incidently leaves out Lin's worst part of his offense compared to Beverley, which is turnovers.

In other words, the OP basically only used criteria that are favorable for Lin, and totally ignore everything that people have generally used against Lin(TOs and defense). If anything, the OP did a disservice because rather than addressing detractors regarding Lin's defense and turnovers, he exacerbated it by totally ignoring them in a supposed "fair" analysis, all while making conclusions based on those.

If the OP had done the exact same thing with defense, and included turnover issues, no matter what the result, everyone would support him.

 

Is it possible that starters would have a higher shooting percentage than bench players. If they're not guarding the same players then it is not that relevant. Or am I missing something?

 

So, you are basically calling all those that want PB to start over Lin, since he has a real small set of datapoints yet can even get into such consideration? On the second point, I don't believe so because it is pretty obvvious there is a percentage of posters that no matter what you say about Lin, they will always argue the negative. Some people are being purposefully obtuse or always applying a double standard.

 

I agree that the info is incomplete. But I would also point out the OP has been actually did additional work to address new points as they come up. Personally, that shows me he is genuine in discussing the issue and is not purposely trying to manipulate data.

Instead of jumping on the OP and bringing up defense when he's clearly talking about offense, wouldn't it be more conducive to the discussion to point out the negative impact if turn overs on the offense? Bring up stats to show the degree that the increase in turn overs negatively impact the offense.

Instead of doing that. People go straight to you have an agenda! Or why you no talk about defensive impact? (Even though the topic is about offense).

This kind of thing is not conducive to a good discussion and brings down the overall quality of the board.

And to be clear. I have no problems with people criticizing someone else's work as long as it's on topic and valid.

And I do want to see turn overs factored into the argument.

 

I asked the OP straight up why he didn't do it for defense. This was his response.

bbs.clutchfans.net/showpost.php?p=8320088&postcount=205

The OP has adjusted his finding on offense several times. But he did not look at defense because "he doesn't have time." Does that sound like someone who wishes to be fully fair?

Also, of course the OP is willing to make changes to all data around Lin and Beverley's team shooting numbers. Everyone who looked into Rockets stat last year knew this would favor Lin. He's the better playmaker and better transition player. All FG% related stats would be decidedly in favor of Lin. While more complete ones would show that both players were more or less equal to another. Beverley slight edge on defense and Lin a slight edge on offense.

So yes, if you base it on the premise that shooting numbers are all that matters, you don't need an essay to prove it. I can watch 5 Rockets games and see it myself quite easily with my untrained eyes.

 

give this fan an internship!

 

People who watch preseason games and think about Beverley over Lin aren't writing essays to support their case like it's factual. It's just an opinion. It's just fantalk.

But yes, if someone were to write a long post with statistical analysis of only defense(an incomplete tatistical subset which would favor Beverley) and use that as a reason why he should start, then I would call out such a person very vehemently.

 

I'm gonna have to agree with Dave on this one. What happened to the days of just having a discussion without all this crap? It's one thing to argue the validity of a given post, but it's another to accuse someone of having an agenda. CF has become flooded with whiney little pretentious posters and it is ruining it for me and I'm sure numerous others. If you don't like "LOFS"...that's fine. Ignore them. I'm sick of tired of hearing LOF this LOF that or the real head scratcher is "I hate Lin because of the LOFS."

The truth is Morey and his crew are light years ahead of any statistical data 99% of us can provide here. We can sit here all day and throw stats around and argue like little girls, but in the end it's the ROX upper management and ultimately the coaching staff who will decide things. What ppl post here won't mean jack, so show a little restraint and let's get the quality of the board the way it used to be.

 

Not even going to lie. The name calling, animosity in tone, and accusation of an agenda is exactly why I stopped reading this thread days ago. Surprised that same type of discussion is still ongoing.

 

Give the OP a break on this. No need to call him out very "vehemently". It's like you're taking this on a personal level.

 

LOL. I'd like to see that theory put to test. Someone should post a "skewed" post on defense to see if meh will call out the OP "vehemently".

 

I think the turnover issue is a fair point. I agree completely with that. But I haven't seen or anyone else ask TTNN to include it in his analysis.

And you asking him to talk about the defense is clearly off topic since his whole post is about the offense. And yes, his original post is incomplete. This revised post still doesn't take into all factors. But he is revising his posts.

And there's nothing stoping you from doing your own stat crunching to show his fallacy in the offense. In fact, that would be greatly further debate and discussion. It would be much more powerful than saying he's wrong. Cuz turnovers!!!!!! It would also be relevant and on topic.