Thats why there is a link and a disclaimer. I'm just as skeptical as the next man. If someone can prove or disprove this i'd be interested.
That was the exact angle that Fox News was showing very frequently yesterday. They were contrasting the joy of the statue-topplers with the ongoing fighting by pulling back to that angle where you could see both within several hundred yards of each other.
Guys, News is all about close ups, it is not interesting from long distance. News is about the human experience, and that was being recorded by the 100s of people taking down the statue. Not how many were there...heck, I am not sure I would be out of my house if bullets were still flying. What I find interesting is that the people felt safe enough to come out ONLY while the US troops were there, that is the more compelling truth. DD
I've searched their site and can't find any views from afar. If they have images i'm missing please post them, I hope i'm not sounding to biased for or against the war. I just can't stand one sided unflinching opinions of people who are unwilling to discuss something intellectually.
The problem I have with this discussion is the implicaton that the US government is setting up some kind of propaganda campaign. CNN, FoxNews, MSNBC, etc. are all independent news outlets free of govenment control. And the US government is not in the habit of getting out poor Iraqis and forcing them to celebrate in the same fashion Saddam Hussein used to. If you want to talk about in the sense of media bias, ok. But the US government doesn't control the media.
I am 100% with you on this one. Add to that, looking at that picture tells me nothing at all. The only thing I think I see is the statue on the ground. For all we know, there could be a group of 5,000 people around the corner dragging the head and beating it with their shoes.
Maybe, the people who were outside had there houses blown to bits so they had no where to hide. Seriously, everyone's making too much out of this, of course those people were happy, and there is still fighting going on. I think the real problem is the media is trying to bill this photo like the Berlin Wall coming down, or the Chinese man in front of the tank at Tinananmen square, or the Marines at Iwo Jima. Everyone's looking for that lasting picture, and the thing has now taken a life of its own. Everyone's reading too much into it.
The image of that child hitting saddam's head with his shoes is burned into your head (as it is with mine). The point is I would love to see the images of 5,000 Iraqis celebrating and I cannot find that image. Journalism in the US should be unbiased enough to show us more of whats really going on, and maybe they will in the coming days. Iraq will benefit from the end saddams rule, but our media should not get caught up in propaganda (again if its even true) because that will ruin the our media's future (sometimes shaky) credibility. Go Rockets
I hate to say this, but some of us were smart enough to know that the entire square wasn't filled with Iraqis even without a wide angle shot. If you would have asked me for a guess yesterday, my guess would have been dozens rather than hundreds or thousands. I'm sure Fox News also gathered these same people into cars and made them parade up and down the streets in celebration as well, while the unsuspecting Americans at home failed to realize that this was really confined to two city blocks. Time will tell whether or not the Iraqi people in general have the same mindset as the dozens of people who were there. If I were a betting man (which I'm not), I would place my money on the fact that they do. At that point some people will be shown for what they are--those who don't even have the foresight to figure out that their baseless criticisms are going to be exposed in the long run. Oh well.
That was your first real sign of Freedom in Baghdad. I think it was fairly important. But the media did blow it out of proportion. Several making it sound like the War was over. When clearly it's not even close to over.
I saw it live when it happened on TV and flipped between 4 different stations that had coverage. "Dozens" is not quite accurate. Definately hundreds if not over 1,000. And this also doesnt take into account that 1) Many citizens have fled the city 2) Many citizens are still hunkered down in their houses, afraid to even come out 3) There were major parts of Baghdad still under control and 4) Electricity is out in most of Baghdad and alot of citizens didnt even know what was taking place in the square.
PS - One might also note that that photos could have been taken way after the statue fell. It looks to be dusk in that photo and it was broad daylight when the statue fell.
I thought that those dozens of guys had brass ballz. Huge brass ones. Like church bell sized...maybe bigger. Jump in a lake.
I watched this whole event live. The US Army/Marines were <b>late arrivers</b>. The Iraqis were trying to down the pedestal for 20 or 30 minutes before the soldiers rumbled onto the scene. Do you think that was part of the script? There was also a point when gunfire broke out and the crowd dispersed some. Who can blame them? Codell's reservations are right on the mark too.
and from what i read from you i would think that there were about 10 iraqis and 500 us troops. i dont know how or what realy went down but from what i saw on tv(including fox, cnn, msnbc, cctv(no not clutchcitytv)) i saw iraqis sharing a sledge hammer trying to what it looked like to me take down as much of the statue base as possible. i did see about 12 troops including the ones on the tank mover thing, and maybe about 50 to who knows how many iraqis. and for the looters most are not around the troops, they are in other areas that the troops have not taken positions at. i think the centcom guys said we have about 60-70% of the city under our "control" but that stil leaves a large area for people to loot and generally act stupid.
The thing began with whatever tools could be found: a length of rope and the sledgehammer. They began chipping away at the pedestal concrete for 20-30 minutes before the tank came rumbling onto the scene. Initially, I believe, there were NO US military at the scene.
