*lol* That's ONE fan. For the one fan you can find that's a Moochie-only fan or the two or three that are Francis-only fans, I -- and many others -- can find a number of Yao-only fans.
*lol* Relax, amigo. I find it hilarious (and somewhat hypocritical) you go on this rant about this board being a Rockets forum, not a Steve Francis fan club, but there's no b****ing whatsoever to the countless number of Yao-only fans who don't have the same mindset as you. And who's dissing anyone? I mean, sure there's a lot of "I'm right, you're wrong, idiot" attitudes here in the BBS, but you'll find that in just about every thread on clutchcity. With that said, you act like ppl (other posters) shouldn't be allowed to DISAGREE with an opinion. duhvine said Francis isn't great, and some others say he is...what's wrong with that? Nothing. Just b/c ppl disagree with him doesn't mean they're Francis-only fans (@ least most of 'em), it means they don't agree with duvine's assessment. Period. Ahh -- differing opinions...what a wonderful concept! You think that may be what this board is really for -- a place to express your opinions, agreeing or disagreeing with others?
Even though dafranchise was a little off, I'm still not convinced people like Dirk, AI, or especially Pierce are more helpful to their team than Francis. AI is a shot jacker who's been pretty hot lately (plus he's had some help), and was also during the championship run that made him so popular (he also had better help during that run). Before that, if you remember, he was takin all kindsa heat from fans and analysts across the league. He's a great talent, but I just think Steve's better. He's had trouble getting along with Stack when he was younger, and now with his coach, and he said he might leave the city because of Cops out to get him? What a crock. Dirk is soft in my opinion, and could just be an example of a Griffin with a better shot but no defense. He also only looks good because of all the offensive weapons he has by his side on his team. I don't think he's as diverse of a player as a lot of people give him credit for being. Pierce is just crap, sorry, that dude and his team have serious problems. He doesn't play at all to his strengths. I had respect for him until recently. He's terrible as a franchise player. I may also be a biased Rocket fan, but I STRONGLY BELIEVE Francis is better than any of these 3 and easily a top 10 player in the league. People just don't recognize him as this because his offensive numbers haven't been there lately (possibly a reason for some of the losses we've racked up lately). I honestly don't know what happened cuz I thought he'd just bust the hell out this season, but he still has the ability to do that sometime soon, and has some serious all-around game.
I want to thank **mztay** and **3-a-charm** for getting my back!! I may sound like an arrogant idiot/punk for starting this thread (which I did for FUN and out of frustration), but I've been called an idiot, r****d, silly, crackhead who is f***ed in the head, and one guy told me to STFU in BOLD. So yeah........, I had my feelings hurt....... Learned my lesson.
Dirk Nowitzki would be nothing without coaches and Steve Nash. The real MVP of Dallas is Michael Finley...their two centers...Najera...Nick Van Exel...the coach...Steve Nash. But not Nowitzki. He just shoots. He is beautifully set up by his guards. But yeah. He is still a great one. He is getting better and better.
I'm pro Francis in this thread and I would take Francis over Pierce and AI, but I think if Dirk didn't play in Dallas, and on a team where he only had an average second scorer, I seriously believe he would average 35 pts a game. I think he is definitely the best shooter in the league, and behind Kobe and McGrady, the third best overall scorer.
I agree w/ u, i would perfer steve over Pierce and AI(Pierce is soooooo overrated, just look at his FG%). but i m not sure about Dirk, Dirk is almost unguardeble
The difference between Pierce/AI/Dirk and Francis is that they proved themselves in the playoffs where great players are born but Francis didn't. That is back to the original topic. Until Francis takes his team to the playoffs and prove himself here, he can't be regarded as "great" IMO. If Francis does prove himself in the playoffs, I am sure his value WILL skyrocket in any player ranking including mine.
Pierce and AI are much better defensive players than Francis, and the both score significantly more. Pierce also has the edge in rbs, steals, blocks-- though this year is FG% in 2% less than Francis (though they are equal in almost all ways across their careers). Pierce is the better player--even if they are close to the same ballaprk. AI is harder to judge with Francis, I admit it is largely based on intangibles. But with very modest talent in Phily except for him he has lead them to have one of the 2-3 best records in the east over the last 3 years and a finals trip--somthing Francis could not have done. I am not saying I would take Iverson over Francis now because of their age difference--but Iverson is the better player right now--I think there is very little doubt about this actually. Dirk is even less a comparison than these two. There is no doubt Dirk is better than Francis--no shame at that, Dirk is a young, improving, top 8 player. I have Francis around the 12th bets player in the league--I think Newgirl was right on. That is very elite status and better than some totally outstanding players like J. Oneal, Brand, Shawn Marion, Marbury and Ray Allen.
Two years ago, I know you hate this argument, Francis's Rockets dominated Pierce's Celtics, and went 1 and 1 vs. Iverson's Sixers. The first game Philly barely won in Houston, the second, Francis dribbled circles around AI. He had Larry Brown crying after the game because Francis put on such an awesome display. If Francis's team was in their conference, they would have been in the playoffs. You might hate that fact, but you can't ignore. Francis is better than both of these guys. He's statistically a better shooter than both of them from the field and 3 point range, a better assist man, and averages only one less rebound than Pierce.
It's too bad the league's eligible voters don't agree with you. AI has been MVP and Pierce led TEAM USA in the World Championships this past summer. I'm not saying Francis will never become MVP, or play on the next next dream team, but right now it looks like Pierce and AI have a half-step higher rank over Francis.
And Francis put up what 40 on the Lakers early this season as did Marbury the other night, I guess they are better than Shaq or Kobe. Similarly, the Knicks and Allan Houston killed us this year, I guess he is better than Francis. There is no question Francis can, and not too infrequently, dominante a game on the offensive end like few other players--though Pierce and AI are some of these others as noted by their higher scoring average. The key difference IMO is that Francis has trouble helping his team win when his shot isn't falling. Both Pierce and AI are better able to help their team due to defense or leadership even when their shots are not falling, that is why with less talent around them they have been more successful this year. Also, Francis's and Pierce's career shooting numbers are pretty much identical. Along with quite a few more points, Pierce also gets more blocks, rdbs, steals, and fewer TOs. Both Iverson and Pierce also get fouled more than Francis--though this doesn't show up in FG% it closes the gap in Points Per Shot--a maker for efficiency. Finally, I want to make a comment about FG% or offensive efficiency (PPS) within the context of total production. You can't discount the real difference in production (high 20s scorers like AI and Pierce from low 20 scorers) just because of FG% or efficiency. If you try this argument you will end up saying Sam Cassell, Brent Barry and John Stockton are better players than Francis--which I think is ludicres. The fact Pierce scores a lot more than Francis more than makes up the nominal difference in PPS/efficiency.
Francis shoots 5% higher than both of them, that's what you can't discount. If Francis played with Boston, my guess is that he would score more, and finally, if you don't think field goal percentage makes a difference, show me one team led by a guy who shoots less than 45% that has won a championship. Kobe, Shaq, Jordan, Olajuwon, Magic, Isiah, and Bird all shot above 50%. Jordan, Magic and Bird, all shot 49% or better. Coincedently, they are considered by some the three greatest players in the history of the league. Show me one team, just one, led by a guy shooting above 45%. Your argument that shooting percentage is made up for by points scored is LUDICROUS. More players above 45%, Dr. J, Bill Walton, Kareem.
Edit, Kobe, Shaq, Magic, Bird, and Olajuwon all shot above 46%. Still, you can't ignore that. Pierce, 41%, he and his team suck. Period.
Pierce led the US team? Led them to what? And the bottom line is that neither of these players would get any kinda play from fans if they weren't in the East. I'm gonna have to agree with pgabriel on this one.
And btw, pgabriel wasn't JUST talking about individual performances of those players, he was talking about the fact that recently, Francis' team has dominated Pierce's and Iverson's. No one can deny that if Houston was in the east, not only would they be solidly in the playoffs, they would be up there with Philly (and Boston of course) as a finals contender. But they, also like those teams, wouldn't stand a chance in hell in the finals.
