<b>For every one you post, I can post two failed coaching firings.</b> <ul><li>First, I don't see where Musselman is taking a lottery team to the playoffs. come on <li>Don Nelson was bashed at Dallas before that, and wasn't he fired at GS. This had nothing to do with Nowitski, 'eh. <li>Larry Brown was chased out of San Antonio..and didn't Iverson win the MVP that year? Plus he was at Philly since 1997. And didn't Indiana fire him? <li>Carlisle ... ironically, Detroit turned it around last year still playing a lot of ISO and better defense. The defense was the difference, and they had the NBA Defensive Player of the Year....hmmm, I wonder if the emergence of Ben Wallace had anything to do with it....buy, yeah, I agree that Detroint was in shambles prior. Score one for you.</ul> Now, how many coaches have the Clippers, Denver, Golden St, Vancouver, Cleveland, Charlotte had??? <ul><li>Adelman was chased out of Portland and Golden State <li>The Van Gundy firing was meaningless <li>Lucas for Popovich didn't put them over the top, Duncan did <li>Jerry Sloan turned the Bulls around 15 games to a 1st round exit, then got fired a year later, and Bulls went nowhere. <li>Both Magic and Bird got title winning coaches fired and Bill Fitch still got credit 1986 Rockets <li>Doc Rivers can't get out of mediocrity after winning his award <li>Firing Danny Ainge for Frank Johnson merely has the Sun fans complaining again...does Amare make the difference or Johnson? <li>I like Flip Saunders, but everyone knows it is all up to Garnett to finally win a playoff series <li>Seattle firing Karl really proved nothing as Nate is doing nothing <li>Portland firing Dunleavy 2 yrs after COY was just a scapegoat move, it was the players not the coach <li>Del Harris was a COY for the Lakers before they fired him <li>Hubie Brown looks like he has Pau Gasol playing worse <li>Firing Larry Brown for Larry Bird just got Indiana right back to where they were under Brown (not quite good enough).</ul> Now, other big swings from players Magic Bird Jordan Moses Malone on philly Hakeem in 1985 Duncan David Robinson/John Lucas Kidd Shaq at Orlando and under Del Harris Was it Mourning or Riley going to Miami?
A-Train, Hey, this is the one trade scenario I like to talk about. Allow me my fun without inferring I'm a hata. I'm not opposed to keeping Francis, a coaching change and trading Mobley. I'm just really giddy to get Kidd....it's like a dream to me. Take Francis out of the equation for a second: Imagine someone 4 times more excited about landing Kidd than Clutch is about trading Mobley. That's me. I wasn't this way until we got Yao. But Kidd matched with Yao makes me woozy. Before that, I wanted to trade Francis to get Yao. After failing to get Kidd, I'd want to trade Francis to get Darko Milicic. To me, Francis as trade bait makes me so freaking giddy, versus all the marginal trades with Mobley. But it must be top value. Add to that that if SA gets Kidd, we're left waiting on Francis to start really changing...Tinsley is not going to cut it. Fact remains, the Rockets were a serious contender when Rudy took over. The franchise was destroyed by drugs and injuries more than poor coaching. Hakeem was the franchise turnaround player, not Bill Fitch. How can we argue this? Don't put words in my mouth. I never said coaching doesn't make a difference. I said that for every coaching change that drastically turned a team around from lottery to contender, I can show you at least two firings that didn't change anything significantly.
I was right there b****ing too. I think the reason we get so much national pub now (besides Yao) is the same reason this team ain't going to the playoffs. Too much style, no substance. Lot's of flashy dunks and funny hair on ESPN but a sub .500 record. Kind of typical for the "new" NBA in general, all style no substance. People want to see who's dunking on who, not who's executing the give and go or the pick and roll. It's ironic that the 2 best teams in the league SA and Dallas hardly get any national pub because all they do is win. They must know how we felt during the mid 90's.
Of course great players make the teams. But either you want to argue about the coaches or the teams. I pointed out teams that were taken over the top by coaches already. You disagree saying the Rockets aren't even a contending team So I point out coaches that have turned teams around from a losing mentality to somewhat successful. Of course Mussellman isn't going to make the playoffs with Golden State, are you going to tell me Golden State hasn't improved. Its ironic you say Brown failed at San Antonio and then list the Clippers as perinial losers, when it is this same Brown who changed the Clippers around without making major changes to the lineup. And as far as the players are concerned, who is stupid enough to give the Rockets their Magic, David Robinson, Bird, Shaq, Malone, or Jordan, for Steve Francis. Another flaw in your argument, it will never happen, especially with Steve making the maxium contract. That's the true stupidity of trading Steve posts or threads, what do you think you're going to get? And second, if you think Yao is a superstar ready to lead this team to bigger and better things, you are projecting, he hasn't proven that yet. As far as Kidd is concerned, how much winning did he do with the Suns. Do you think any of his success in NJ has to do with the sorry conference he plays in. Here's another argument, which team has gotten better trading away a player that they thought couldn't get them over the top. Phoenix traded away Kidd last year, they are no better off. The Bullets traded away Rasheed Wallace and lost Chris Webber. They didn't get over the hump with them and they aren't doing so well with out them. The Rockets took 9 years to finally break through with Hakeem. There were lots of people who wanted to jump off his ban wagon 3 years before the first championship. Good thing the Rockets didn't listen to them then, and I hope they aren't listening now.
hp - In many ways, I agree with you about concerns of whether Francis has "it" to lead the Rox to the WC Finals and beyond, but... If I understand your point, it is the acquisition of very talented players (as opposed to coaching and role player changes) that produce NBA or Conference Finals appearances. Is my understanding correct? If I have misunderstood, perhaps you could put into plain English? If I have understood correctly, does that coin not have a flip side? Are there not numerous cases of teams swapping players and drafting players and signing high profile FA's that have been equally counter productive as the failed coaching changes you have listed? Would you tell me unequivacably that Kidd would take Houston to the next level regardless of who the coach was? Even with Larry Smith? Is that how far you place talent above coaching? I'm not arguing for anything but further clarification.
And that was never my point. I agree that coaches make marginal differences. My point was we need way more than a marginal change. That starts with Francis improving from within; Griffin improving; Yao; Mobley, etc. I said that to point out that a marginal change like GS does nothing. How happy do you think GS fans are with being a 10th seed right now? That is no different than what "Rudy did" 2 yrs ago. Think about it pgabriel. The irony was intended. The point is that Brown was fired a couple of times...and we are advocating that firing Rudy will make this big change. Rudy has had as much success and failure as Brown, Adleman and Dunleavy. The irony is that those guys get fired like it really will make a huge difference. Follow me, pgabriel. I'm saying that the problems can't be fixed by marginal trades like Kenny for Posey or coaching changes. It has to come primarily from Steve. I already told you what I'd want back...Jason Kidd or a top draft pick like what Shareef delivered. There's not much else. How many teams have had Yao to retool with. besides, NJ traded Marbury. Gasol is better than Shareef...Jerry West thinks so. It does happen. Oh yeah. I guess destroying the defending champion Lakers (arguably the best team ever) by averaging over 30ppg and being leading rebounder of both teams each game in Hakeem's 2nd year and making it to the finals doesn't count for squat simply because the 1986 Celtics (arguably the best team ever) beat them in 6 games. Yeah, Hakeem never broke through. Again pgabriel...the point I'm making is whether Francis must learn to lead for us to drastically improve, or if marginal efforts like trading Kenny and getting Van Gundy in here will take us from lottery to a ring. There just aren't too many cases of teams with underachieving franchise players getting better by coaching changes and role players being added. I'm fine waiting out Francis, and I've supported him a lot. I just really really like the idea of Kidd with Yao...and I really like the idea of Darko Milicic with Yao. Francis with Yao is not impressing me, yet. It's all about Francis and Yao. imo, Yao is guaranteed to excel with Jason Kidd to the point of Kidd teaching him a lot about passing and running offenses. The fastbreak will instantly improve...all by itself. Kidd is a 1st Team defender...etc. Francis improving to the point of making players like Griffin, Posey, Mobley, Nachbar *better* is no guarantee. Who on this team does Francis make better?
This says it all! Steve is a great player but he does not make anyone better or make anyone's job easier.
Nostalgia turning into an arguefest, no, better, an orgy with HP. PS: HP, getting kidd would be too good to be true.
That's a good point, for every bad coaching change, we can also find a bad superstar trade (or signing). This argument is getting nowhere, anyone can point out countless examples. Let's just stick to talking about the current Rockets situation. Can Steve Francis change into the type of player who will make those around him better? Is he really like Hakeem or Jordan, in that he just needs time to develop? Will a new coach be abe to teach him the basics in being a point guard and moving the ball around? In my opinion, the answer is no to those questions. He is not a dominant scorer or a true #1 option. His style clashes too much with Yao and other teammates. He will have to learn to be the 2nd option or we should trade him.
Heypartner, you've named one player out there who can make his team better that the Rockets might be able to get, that's Kidd. Other than that, of course Duncan, Robinson, Moses Malone, Jordan, Bird, Magic, and Hakeem, are better than Steve. The problem is the Rockets need a coach who can blend these players together. They have proven they can win together, they have beaten every team in the conference in front of them except the Mavericks. They beat Sacrament twice, they beat San Antonio, they beat the Lakers twice, they've beaten Portland, and Utah, and the team they are battling three times. There is no reason to break up the team just yet. They have to develop consistency, but more importantly they just need time together. And again, Yao Ming still has a lot to work on himself. He is not the dominant center people think he is. He's still slow, he doesn't challenge enough shots, and he doesn't grab enough rebounds. All I'm saying is the Rockets should just wait. And again, Phoenix wasn't that great with Kidd. There are reasons the guy has been traded twice.
Right now, it's hard not to think this way. Watching the last minutes of the Bucks game I was struck (dumb-founded, actually) by the fact that Francis was so slow bringing the ball up on offense when the game was still in reach. I couldn't believe it. What was he waiting for, hell to freeze over?? The part you wrote about the '86 Rockets team I repeated because it was fun reading it (and true) and a blast watching that run the Rockets made. Man, what a team!
pgabriel, I agree that patience is a virtue with this them. Don't let me sound like a trading fanatic like those who think purging us of Kenny and Mobley will make Francis better. I want change from within, too. Starting with Francis and Yao and Griffin. GATER, My point is two-fold: history shows that it is rare for coaching changes and role player swaps to turn underachieving stars into title contenders...they tend to only have marginal effect until the superstar learns to make his teammates better....i consider this intangible quality of real MVPs to be close to something that can't be taught. Coaches are there to figure out a system for the star, fit the role players into it, prepare the team with scouting information, and manage PT and keep people happy. Coaches rarely can change a franchise player into a different player. My second point is that with Yao Ming we can retool completely around him, and therefore we can risk trading Francis in a perfect-type trade that best suits Yao. In otherwords, are our two franchise players clashing like Marbury/Garnett and McGrady and Carter appeared destined to clash. Lastly, guys like Kidd, Stockton, Walton, Magic, Bird bring their own systems with them. Kidd's teams will have great fastbreaks no matter who the coach is. That in itself would get Posey, Mobley, Nachbar running and this team 10 more wins like turning on a switch. Guys like Francis do not make teammates better, and coaches have to create offenses to hide their weaknesses, like Brown has to continue ISOing Iverson while he tries to get him to trust his teammates, and notice how he keeps swapping role players after role players with hardly any effect. It's all on Iverson. This issue: "How long do we give Rudy?" Is all fine and dandy. But when Kidd is apparently considering being matched with a real big man for a serious attempt at a ring, and we have a real big man, "How long do you give Francis?" becomes the question I ask. I admit; it is a rare situation. Franchise for franchise players don't do much more than coaching changes or role player swaps. But we know for a fact Kidd can run a fastbreak, and he has never been matched with a big man, and if he gets matched with Duncan,,,we are toast.
No kidding, he always does this. I think he gets the ball stolen too often when he tries to push it harder.
Hp, we have a big man, sure. But right now Duncan is better than yao. So why would Kid want NJ to ST w/ Houston instead of just signing w/ San Anton? And Kid is only getting older. He can win now w/ Duncan. With Yao, it will take at 2 extra years.
Just playing Devil's Advocate. What if Kidd wanted out of NJ and SA said thanks but no thanks..we'd rather have Parker and Kandi (or other serviceable FA C) and another solid role player with our money? It is within the realm of possibilty that Kidd could do it immediately. He surely has the ability to elevate those around him...Yao with a board or Eddie with a block...Kidd in the middle with Mobley and Posey on the wings? I see what hp is excited about. Aren't the Rox 3-10 in games decided by 3 points or less? Aren't the Rox at the botom of the WC in FB points and points off of TO's?
Don't cry for me Argentina. Do cry about the past. I don't miss the past because it is what it is. I look forward to the future with optimism. I look forward to the future where Yao Ming will have arrived as "The Man". A future where Mobley is not bitter about being the 4th option or if possible gone for good. A future where Francis will seize being our number one option. A future where Larry Smith goes is back to his "day-job" or gone to the Clippers if possible. A future where Boki is refered to around the league as Peja Stojakovic's clone. A future where smart basket is the norm/rule rather than the exception. A future we will be constantly refered to as defending champions of the NBA. Finally, I look forward to the future with Rudy T totally conquering and defeating the cancer disease and is fully back to great health. Ah......the future looks good from my vantage point. Thank goodness for Yao Ming.
Last I heard, Kobe is still being criticized here in LA for not playing very smart. The difference between Kobe and Francis is that Kobe is bigger and more talented. Kobe can play one on three and win. Francis can't. Shaq is actually the smart player in terms of basketball IQ. Unlike good college coaches, good NBA coaches don't make players better, they make good players play better together.
HP, I'm surprised that you give up on Francis so quickly. Anyways, I still don't see how we can get Kidd. It sounds like a pipe dream to me. We can't afford him as FA. So it must be from trade. Maybe NJ has no choice if Kidd doesn't want to sign. But that is up to Kidd if he wants to come. As someone has pointed out, I don't see why Kidd would want us over the Spurs if his objective is to win a ring before he retires. Other than Kidd, I dont' know which franchise player we can get that fits our need. And I agree with you that if Kidd signs with SA, we are toast. The rest of the league is toast.
Winning 2 championships has spoiled Rockets fans. They expect nothing less than championships. Let's face it. The Rockets will not reach the NBA Finals for another 10 years at least, in the year 2013. Every season will be a disappointment until then.
