Do ordinary Iraqis really support this war?

http://www.arabnews.com/Article.asp?ID=24366

Arab News asked several of the refugees waiting to enter Basra what they thought of regime change. Accompanying Arab News were several international TV crews. What the refugees said on and off camera were very different things.

On camera, the general feeling among the crowd was sorrow at losing Saddam. Off camera, the citizens of Umm Qasr and Basra appeared genuinely exhilarated at the prospect of a brighter future, after Saddam had been removed.


http://www.arabnews.com/Article.asp?ID=24481

When we finally made it to Safwan, Iraq, what we saw was utter chaos. Iraqi men, women and children were playing it up for the TV cameras, chanting: "With our blood, with our souls, we will die for you Saddam."

I took a young Iraqi man, 19, away from the cameras and asked him why they were all chanting that particular slogan, especially when humanitarian aid trucks marked with the insignia of the Kuwaiti Red Crescent Society, were distributing some much-needed food.

His answer shouldn't have surprised me, but it did.

He said: "There are people from Baath here reporting everything that goes on. There are cameras here recording our faces. If the Americans were to withdraw and everything were to return to the way it was before, we want to make sure that we survive the massacre that would follow as Baath go house to house killing anyone who voiced opposition to Saddam. In public, we always pledge our allegiance to Saddam, but in our hearts we feel something else."

Different versions of that very quote, but with a common theme, I would come to hear several times over the next three days I spent in Iraq.


http://www.arabnews.com/Article.asp?ID=24516

I asked several [Umm Qasr residents] what they thought of the US/UK plan to remove Saddam. They told me: "Now that they have started to remove him, they cannot stop. If they do, then we are all as good as dead. He still has informants in Umm Qasr and he knows who is against him and who isn't."

When asked about what they think of this war, most Iraqis said that they were against the loss of innocent life and the destruction of their cities, but they seemed adamant about the removal of Saddam. They were happy about the "liberation" of Umm Qasr but were disappointed in the US/UK for not keeping their promises to provide humanitarian aid.

 

Would you say that you supported the liberation of your country, if you knew that your family was going to get killed because you said that? Or that you would be killed/tortured for those kind of remarks?

http://www.washingtopost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A63438-2003Mar31.html

This is a good article, that shows how scared people are of Saddam and his regime.

 

Afghanistan lasted 37 days, give it time, give it time.

 

An Iraqi man I work with gives me a resounding "YES," to answer your question. The only member of his family to be born in America, ALL of his family lives in Baghdad. He has said to me on several occasions, "Thank God for America." He has also told me that he and his family and friends in Iraq ALL support the American efforts in this campaign. He also expresses absolute outrage at the peace protestors. Like damn near all of us, he doens't want war, but he also recognizes that sometimes, it is the only option.

 

Well, the Iraqis here in America overwhelmingly support this war. The Iraqis over in Iraq are still afraid of what Saddam can do for them.

Are they 100% happy that they are getting invaded? Of course not. I would not be happy that another country has to bomb the hell out of my land. But they were living under constant terror, I think most are happy this is happening.

 

On Nightline a week or so back Ted Koppell said he talked to one hungry Iraqi off camera after he'd been given food by American forces. He said the Iraqi told him that while a lot of Iraqis hated Saddam he shouldn't mistake that for support of the US, who a lot of them feared and didn't like either. It was the same broadcast in which some Iraqis fearfully asked if Israel was coming next.

When they are free of Saddam they may change their opinions about the US which, even now, are in no way uniform to Iraqis in general. I think anyone who says they know how Iraqis feel about the US (either way) is deluding themselves. I don't pretend to know how they feel about us right now and there is no media source there right now that is allowed to give us an objective take on their feelings toward us.

We'll see what happens when the dust settles. Will a woman whose husband was tortured and killed by Saddam feel favorably toward the US for getting rid of him? Probably. Will a man whose wife was killed by US soldiers or an errant bomb feel resentful of the US for the loss of his wife? Maybe. What about a man whose sister was killed by Saddam and whose brother was killed by the US? Who knows how he'll feel?

And this is something that really bugs me about sino's signature.

First of all, no one aside from extreme followers of Saddam "boos" the liberation of the Iraqis. Many people in the world have a problem with many other aspects of this war, but no one is booing liberty.

Second the Iraqi people as a whole are not cheering their liberation. Some are, some aren't. The ones who aren't may not trust the US after the collateral damage of the first Gulf War, or after sanctions (whoever's fault it was the food didn't get to them, whatever the case they were better fed and had better medicine before the Gulf War), or after we said we'd support an uprising and then blew it off. There are others who fear us for our alliance with Israel. There are others still who don't think liberation from an oppressive regime is worth losing friends and family to this war. And yes, of course, there are many, I'm sure, who strongly favor liberation from Saddam no matter what the cost.

But the simplification in Nolen's quote, saying the world boos and the Iraqis cheer, is one of the main reasons we can't have an intelligent conversation on this topic, like, ever. That's too bad.

 

Posted in my thread but still relative here:

Iraqi deserter tells of desperate days

With comrades, he overcame execution fears to run for his life

By Brian Murphy
ASSOCIATED PRESS

KALAK, Iraq, March 31 — The soldier covered his face and wept. It was a deep, sudden sobbing he couldn’t control. His shoulders heaved. Tears wet the frayed cuffs of his green Iraqi army sweater.

‘We only prayed we’d stay alive long enough to get a chance to escape.’
— IRAQI DESERTER
HE CRIED because he was alive. He cried because his family may think he’s dead. He cried for his country. He cried because — for him — the war was over.
“I’m so sorry. Excuse me. I just can’t stop,” wept the soldier who fled Saddam Hussein’s army and was taken Monday into the hands of U.S.-allied Iraqi Kurdish fighters. “Could this terrible time be over soon? Please, tell me.”
The soldier — part of a front-line unit — was among at least 18 Iraqi deserters who staggered into the Kurdish town of Kalak as U.S. warplanes stepped up airstrikes on Iraqi positions near the Kurds’ autonomous region. He agreed to share his story, but with conditions: no details about him or his military service could be revealed. Call him Ali.
He feared Saddam loyalists could retaliate against his family. They may have already, he said.
“The army knows I ran away. They could come and take revenge,” he said in the central police barracks in Kalak, about 20 miles northwest of the Kurdish administrative center Irbil. “My only hope is that I’m not alone. There are so many deserters and those who want to run. They cannot attack all these families with a war going on.”

PRAYING FOR A CHANCE TO FLEE
War for this foot soldier was one of desperation. “We only prayed we’d stay alive long enough to get a chance to escape,” Ali said through an interpreter.

His unit — about 30 men — slept in muddy burrows on a hillside, he said. Breakfast was tea and crusty bread. At midday: rice and a single cucumber to share between two soldiers. There was no dinner.
His commanders described the war as an American grab for Iraqi oil. He couldn’t contradict them — there were no radios or chances to call home. Occasionally they would receive copies of the Iraqi military newspaper. One issue featured a poem with the lines: “The enemy will tire, and Saddam will remain.”
“We knew nothing. We were told only that America was trying to take over Iraq,” Ali said. “But we are not so stupid. We know how Saddam rules the country. We know in our hearts we’d be better off without him.”
Ali was drafted just after the 1991 Gulf War. He remained in the military because his family depended on the small military pay. Anyway, there were few choices for ex-soldiers whose formal education ended in the fourth grade. There were no jobs at home. Ali claimed he would never seek the favors of Saddam’s ruling Baath party.
“I don’t see Saddam as a hero anymore,” Ali said.

WOUNDED ‘LEFT TO DIE’
U.S. bombs killed at least five members of his unit. About the same number were wounded, he said. “There is no medical help,” he added. “They are left to die.”
“The spirit of the soldiers is very low,” he said. “We were not really mad at the Americans. We just want to save our lives.”

He and four other soldiers decided to run. But they had to pick their moment. Their unit and most others include Baathist agents given orders to execute any deserters, he said.
“But we decided it was either die from an American bomb or be killed by our own people,” he said. “It was better to run and take our chances.”
On Wednesday evening, in a torrential rainstorm, they made their break. They raced over the treeless pastures into Kurdish territory. The next morning, they asked a goat herder to direct them to Kalak. Then they panicked.
“We thought he would hand us over to the Iraqi army for some reward,” Ali said.
They arrived at the edge of Kalak on Friday. They could see the Iraqi positions on the ridge just across the Great Zab River, running high and dirt brown after the downpours. And they waited.
They worried Kurdish militiamen would open fire if they simply walked into town. Until dawn Monday, they survived on wild greens and weighed their choices. They finally decided to fashion a surrender flag from an undershirt.
A half hour later, they were gulping hot tea and smoking cigarettes. Kurdish officials hunted for new clothes. Ali still wore what passed for a uniform: green camouflage pants, boots, a military sweater, a wool turban and a ragged nylon jacket dotted with cigarette burns.

CAMP HAS ROOM TO GROW
Kurdish authorities decline to say precisely how many Iraqi military deserters have crossed over. Modest estimates range from several hundred to nearly 500. But they clearly expect more. Kurds plan a camp for at least 6,000 deserters and possible Iraqi POWs.
Massoud Barzani, leader of the Kurdish Democratic Party whose territory includes Kalak, said “no comment” when asked if U.S. officials in the Kurdish zone would question deserters.
“I can say now what I always felt: Saddam led to this war,” Ali said. “We don’t want to fight America. We don’t want to fight for Saddam. We just want an end to all this.”
A top Kurdish official, Hoshiar Zebari, predicted a collision course for two powerful forces in Iraq: the ordinary troops and the defenders of the regime.
“It’s highly possible there could be confrontations between the regular army and the paramilitary who are terrorizing the people,” Zebari told reporters.
Ali agreed. No one dares to speak out against Saddam while Baath party forces still have footholds, he said.
“The people know that any uprising against Saddam now would mean terrible things to them and their family. They force them to chant ‘Down with America,’ but not everyone means it. Saddam’s people are afraid for the future.”
That’s when he started to cry. Moments later came the thud of a U.S. bomb hitting the ridge just across the river


Iraqi soldiers tale

DD

 

Reminds me of what a Vietnamese friend told me. The Vietnamese were sold a bill of goods by the communists and fought for their 'rights' in the 'American War'.

Of course, afterwards, they did not receive what was promised. They could not even travel to neighboring villages without special passes. Hence, the 'boat people'. Many of whom settled in the US...after learning of their error in supporting the communists.

 

All the Iraquis I know who say "No" are dead.

 

Scenes from Iraq (compiled by opinionjournal.com):

-"Hundreds of Iraqis shouting 'Welcome to Iraq' greeted Marines who entered the town of Shatra Monday after storming it with planes, tanks and helicopter gunships," Reuters
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=564&e=25&u=/nm/20030331/ts_nm/iraq_shatra_dc_2 reports. Says one young man: "There's no problem here. We are happy to see Americans."

-"The welcome they had hoped for finally greeted American troops
yesterday, as waving Iraqis lined the streets when the advance northwards to Baghdad was resumed," reports the Daily Telegraph http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/04/01/war101.xml from central Iraq.

-The Telegraph also reports
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/04/01/wbasra01.xml that Royal Marine commando, mopping up after completing the delightfully named Operation James, an assault on a southern Basra suburb, "received a warm welcome from the members of the 30,000-strong population, with children and adults giving the thumbs-up, smiling and shouting 'Mister, mister, England good.' "

- Another Reuters dispatch
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=2484430 , from outside Basra, explains why Iraq's second city has been slow to rise up: Fleeing Iraqi civilians "said on Tuesday they faced heavy pressure from members of President Saddam Hussein's Baath party not to rise up against him." One unnamed local resident says: "The Baath Party has been going around Basra and using megaphones to warn us that we had better join the war effort."

-The Washington Times
http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20030401-56007896.htm reports from Qara Hanjir, in northern Iraq, that the locals "are welcoming the budding American military presence with undisguised enthusiasm." Soleyman Qassab, a local businessman who runs a burger joint called MaDonal's ["They've got the Golden Arches, we've got the Golden Arcs"], wrote in a local newspaper: "If the USA comes here, we'll get our freedom. It's time to welcome the American military."

-"Two Iraqi soldiers who said they were sent on a suicide attack mission to the country's largest port have turned themselves in to British troops," the Associated Press
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-2525679,00.html
reports. The AP quotes Col. Steve Cox of the Royal Marines: "We had two suicide bombers turn themselves in yesterday because they didn't want to be suicide bombers any more. We are accommodating them."

-The Telegraph
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/04/01/wbasra01.xml
reports that one Royal Marine "told of how an Iraqi colonel driving a car with a briefcase full of cash refused to stop and was shot dead. 'I didn't know what to do with the money so I gave it to the kids, bundles of the stuff,' the Royal Marine said."

==============================================

I agree with Batman regarding the uniformity of Iraqi opinion regarding the U.S. (much of their mistrust & trepidation stems from our shameful actions during the rebellions following Gulf War I). However, I do believe that if handled properly, the reconstruction period following the war can & should be an amicable one. Many Iraqis don't like us, but 99% of them like Saddam less; it all hinges on our policies & conduct in a post-war environment.

 

Buck,

Outstanding dude....great post.

DD

 

I don't think we'll know until we get to run the peace.

Here's even more commentary on this:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2080976/

 

Why do they not like the US? Other than 3 decades of Saddam's brainwashing, what really has the US done than didn't revolve around Saddam's misbehavior?

 

The Arabs are (although often misguided) a proud people. Having someone invade your country is always a blemish to your honor no matter what. Even the POW's who hate Saddam feel somewhat ashamed to surrender.

 

Well we screwed them in Gulf War I and we support Israel. We also helped keep Saddam in power before the Gulf War. Thats just my guess.

 

But we have been led to believe that we were resented long ago. My guess would be that it even was to have preceeded the Gulf War. Our solidarity with Israel is the only obvious answer, but there must be more...

 

From what most Arabs say it is the Palestine issue that is paramount. To me it seems in most interviews I see with Arabs they say that if the Palestine/Israel conflict was resolved by the US then that would change their opinion of the US for the better and that it is what stands out most when they think of what makes them mad about the US.

 

Makes sense. The Arabs probably have "even it's a dirty flag, it's our flag" mentality.

 

What about the nations of the '91 coalition combined with this coalition which numbers about 40 nations as I recall. They are just about to cut themselves off from the non-Arab world.