Islamists murder secular opposition politicians in Tunisia, Libya

Fantastic post, ATW.

 

Neo Cons have two main arcs in D&D.

Obama is a Facist/Communist/Crook
Islam is evil

These are the two topics that have the LEAST intelligent debate. What is the purpose of these two themes? The first is to troll. The second I do not know. How many times does one need to claim "Islam is evil and violent" before we can all say, "Alright already, we get what you think!"

 

Actually I'm quite liberal and a former Muslim turned atheist and believe that Islam is not necessarily evil but incompatible with the modern world, at least in it's current form. Unlike Christianity, Islam has not had a reformation. You don't have to be a Neo Con to understand that Islam is a troubled religion that is partly responsible for the violation of human rights across the globe and needs some serious reform.

 

If said president were elected after a period of brutal dictatorship for 30 years, in a nascent new-American democracy?

Your comparison falls flat on many levels, least of all the context of a stable democracy that is a world leader in establishing democratic principles, and a nascent new democracy that will have growing pains, and which the military has NOWHERE near the credibility the American military, under civilian oversight for so long, has.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/29/egypt-restores-secret-police-units

 

the funny thing about this is that, given your tendency to track me through threads, and change entire tags for no reason, you would know better than to say I was "silent" while Morsi suspended the judiciary. There's a difference between admittedly starting 50 threads on one narrow-focused topic and offering some commentary, but not all of us have human rights abuses on our radar only when they concern Islam.

I must applaud you for finally taking the time and sketching out some substance in your thoughts. This is sorely lacking, and you need to do it more. However, I hasten to point out the problem with anecdotal evidence, especially with confirmation bias, and the self-selecting bias of hearing from people who have left. Unfortunately, there is also a degree of difference between not having a "pure of a democracy" as Norway and military coups. Given the history of military coups in other parts of the Middle East, and how the Mubarak regime first started, people should be VERY wary, especially given how the military has behaved. That is what I have maintained from the beginning, and you have never once addressed those worries---other than presumably justifying the killing of unarmed protesters as some part of the "greater good" of a "less than pure" democracy.

As for your barb about people who do not know the realities of the developing world (because of course, what would an ATW post be without SOME passive-aggressive personal barb), I don't exactly see how you can presume you have more than others because you talked with your barber .

 

I'm not sure I qualify in your target audience, but I have no problem with that analogy, aside from how fundamentally different we are than Egypt. We've already established that you and I agree, at least, that Egypt is just not ready for a fully functioning democracy (and definitely not an oligarchy). But yeah, the MB got elected and then tried to rig the game to not look like a democracy anymore.

(One problem with your post is that I've never seen, in my life, a republican president who was a fiscal conservative. Most spend-happy SOB's the nation has ever seen, (except for Bush I, and maybe early Nixon), but that's another story.)

 

What's funny here - is that I haven't commented on what's happening on Egypt at all! Outraged? You are manufacturing claims here - very disingenuous even for your standards. C'mon ATW - debate honestly.

 

But he doesn't, and I think you know better.

Why let people "digust" you on a message board? He just has a different opinion on a very complex situation. Too often we all feel like it's as simple as addition and other people can't add. Problems involving human being, especially problems involving millions of human beings, are more complicated that we give them credit for. In fact, as with a lot of complex problems, there simply aren't good answers.

(e.g. Most partial-differential equations, which are the most realistic models for natural processes in the universe, don't have strict solutions.)

Cheers.

 

Solid rationale post. I have to say I respect your composure here. Any kind of insulting or personal attack here clearly shows you are winning the debate.

See there you go - advantage Northside Storm

 

Interesting debate here in the last couple pages, despite the usual (and unnecessary) poo-flinging.

Thanks to all involved for the good read. Tried to spread some rep but got a lot of "you must spread it around" messages (cue poo-flinging pun).

 

The Koran is nor more out of touch with the modern world than the Bible. It's not the actual religion itself, but the civilization that's built around it.

I don't think anyone would disagree that most Islamic countries are backwards and are out of step with the 1st world. But you know what, there was a time when Europe was considered backwards and the Islamic world was considered the 1st world. There were Muslim emperors who ruled peacefully over mixed religions, and Muslim scholars who advanced math and science. There was a time when Islam was the leading intellectual thought in the world and Christianity was considered savage.

The problem isn't Islam. The problem is that when you have a bunch of poor people living with education, wealth, and respect over long enough time they become radicalized through whatever religion is accessible. And when you combine that with modern weaponry you are going to get disastrous results.

My point is that demonizing Islam isn't going to solve the problem. What's needed is economic development and stability. People don't want to risk something if they have something to lose. Problem is people there have nothing.

Malaysia is living proof that a country can modernize under Islam with multiple religions. It doesn't have to be this view that Islam is fundamentally incompatible with the world.

I am not saying Muslims aren't deserving of criticism either. Just no need to demonize a religion. There are plenty of moderate Egyptians who are Muslims. Our goal should be trying to figure out how to empower them instead of labeling all Muslims - both radical and moderates - as a hopeless lost cause.

 

Dude, stop calling people idiots. They are just as smart as you.