Without the US, UK shipping would have been entirely eliminated. The Germans were sinking UK shipping at a rate far exceeding the capacity of UK shipyards to replace them. UK industry would have grounded to a halt and she would have been forced to surrender eventually. Without the UK and US, there would never have been the North Sea Convoys which propped up Russia during the early phase of the war. Through the course of the war 42 convoys traveled to Russia. Among the 4 million tons of supplies shipped to the Soviet Union were 5,000 tanks, more than 7,000 aircraft, motor vehicles, explosives and foodstuffs. Without this, Russia probably would have fallen. Especially when the Japanese turned their efforts north if left unchecked in Asia. Without the US, there would never have been a Marshall Plan, and not only would the Europeans be still probably fighting wars against each other, enjoying third world living standards, but they'd also be living on communes under the blessing of the USSR. (Or alternatively, living under the benevolence of the Third Reich). It is not a stretch to say the US saved the Western World and a heck of a lot more. Regardless of actual motives, it's hard to see how people can claim otherwise.
we should do the world a favor and cut ties with isreal but in other news, i liked the way the russians fought in WWII "throw a whole bunch of people at the enemy and they will run out of bullets" at least thats what i call it. did the russians really give one man the rifle and the next man the ammo so when one goes down the other has something to fight with? and mcbeth, what do you have on patton. i say he was our best general in the war, what do you say about blood and guts?
Lil: Not to mention your post leaps in logic by leaps and bounds. You failed to comprehend the basic concept: If mutual actions were taken with a self-beneficiary motive, then it become a business that benefits both sides. Nobody is required to feel gratitude or whatever because it's business, not CHARITY. There is no ifs and buts in history, there's just history. So quit imagining history that's not there. I can make up a thousands ifs that favors each side. An example being, if France didn't assist the USA in the independance process, the USA might not even exist. Now who owes whom? So next time before you want to dwell in your American banana type of love, take a look at history and quit trying make up history.
Mango...I wrote an incredibly long essay response, even for me, to this, and it somehoe erased itslef as I ewas finishing up...will redo, but I haven't forgotten...am pissed as hell, though, it was good stuff!
MacBeth, really admire your in-depth analysis. but i think you do underestimate the extent of UK/US contribution to the Soviet war effort. i excerpt from: http://members.tripod.com/~Sturmvogel/SovWarProd.html "Lend-Lease supplied 317,900 tons of explosive materials, equal to over half the Soviet production of approximately 600,000 tons. In addition the Allies supplied 103,293 tons of toluene, the primary ingredient of trinitrotoluene, also known as TNT. Soviet production of which totaled some 116,000 tons. Without Lend-Lease the Soviets would have had a serious ammo shortage amongst all their other problems." the UK/US also supplied a vast proportion of the rest of the Soviet war machine as well, especially in the first few years of the invasion, when production was being shifted to the east. basically, without lend-lease, there would have been no kursk. no stalingrad. and no proverbial "man with ammo to pick up his dead comrade's rifle", cuz there wouldn't have been any ammo to begin with... just giving credit where they're due.
Mango...here it is, Long Overdue Reply II...(hey, at least we ressurected a great thread) 1) It's impossible to say for certain that there was to be no wink wink codicil in any Franco-UK deal with the USSR, becasue it never got anywhere near the stage of discussing terms; Stalin's overtures were turned away, essentially unread, mostly at British instigation...Ti is unlikely though; Stalin was making his near desperation apparent, not a position you adopt if you are looking to barter. 2) By the time Stalin made his deal with the devil, he was both resigned to the fact that the rest of the West were entrenched against him, hence making Germany the only part with whom he could come to terms, and had seen what the French and British were attempting to do, ie turn Hitler loose on the East, and had decided that his only course was to do the same. Remember the key factor in any strategic decision Germany ever makes; to avoid a 2 front war...Hitler knew this, Stalin knew this, and the British and French knew this...In fact it was the obviousness of this reality that had prompted Stalin to suppose that an alliance of the USSR with the West would be the only thing to prevent Hitler from turning belicose; the prospect of an immediate 2 front war would keep him stagnant. So, with all parties knowing that a 2 front war was what Hitler needed to avoid, the West chose to reject Stalin's proposals of unity, but instead sought to turn his attentions eastward at Munich...Basically let the wolf and the bear fight it out, and then be in a position of strength over the survivor...Remember too that this was pre-Blitzkrieg, when the concept of war on any significant scale was thought to be a gradual process with heavy costs on both sides, irrespective of the outcome. Seeing Munich for what it was, especially when combined with the fact that the West had repeatedly shut him out, Stalin sought to do the same; ie make an even more secure border with the Germans, thereby ensuring the fact that when Hitler struck, he would strike West...Stalin had just significantly destroyed his own strategic capacity with sweeping purges of high ranking military officers, and he knew that the Nazi war machine was, at the time, superior to his own. What he hoped for by now wast at best the reverse of the West's plan; that Germany, France and Britain would beat on each other for the years it would take him to implement hos 5 year plan of military development, ensuring that he grew stronger while they grew weaker...and at worst he supposed some sort of stalemate which would essentially allow the development of the USSR war machine even if it wasn't concurrent with western mutual destruction. At this point three key miscalculations come into play; The first was that everyone, even the Nazis themselves underestimated the incredible power and speed of the new style of warfare they had partly developed, partly stumbled upon: lightning war. It can and has been argued that, if you consider what immediately preceded it, and what has followed, the development of the Blitzkrieg was the greatest leap forward in military history...I don't know if that's true; Phillip of Macedon is up there for me, as is the development of the flexible legion, but it's close, and certainly the greatest development in modern times...Either way, it did in days and weeks what it was supposed to do in months and years; it swept through western Europe like a scythe through weat, and the 'allies' simply couldn't react fast enough to formulate any effective opposition...until Hitler reached the English Channel...and stopped. This is the second miscalculation, and it was Hitler's.He had the British on their heels, suddenly scrambling to defend English shores when they were expecting years of fighting in Poland, France and Belgium; they were completely vulnerable...and everyone knew it. It is pretty much conceded that had Hitler not paused to seek peacefull terms, he could have overrun the UK in a matter of weeks. But he didn't...instead he offered excellent term; essentially mutual non-interference, no reparations...he genuinely admired the British Empire, and saw it as an essential component to the world economy, and so was gracious...and was turned down flat. He was incredulous...his real ambitions, once he removed the threat to his Western flank, had always lain to the East...if you read My Struggle he makes this blatantly apparent...that was where the resources and the serviel races lay to fuel his vision of a Third Reich...the West was only to be secured. So when Britain basically said " Come and get us!" he was baffled...and his amazement gave the British the time to get into to saome sort of military readiness, with which we now all assosciate Their Finest Hour...which, while heroic as hell, and probably the Western version of Stalingrad in it's impact and bravery, was also only standing up to a half-hearted German invasion effort...and one which was recalled just when it seemed to be about to succeed. Hitler grew impatient with waitng to conquer a people he really didn't want to conquer, and after an impressive but not very determined effort, decided that the Western threat was reduced enough, and turned his attention towards his real objective; the USSR. The third miscalculation: Stalin could not believe that Hitler would leave a threat at his back, and the possibility of a 2nd front, without delivering the coup de gras...and so he vascilated and equivicated while his advisors told him of German troops massing on their borders...he stalled when told of advances into Soviet territory, and by the time he came to grips with the reality of the situation the Germans had decimated the Soviet military capacity, and Stalin was forced to make desperate decisions...from this point on his actions and decisions were pretty close to brilliant, but there can be little doubt that his initial inactivity cost the Soviets dearly...In his defense, he was ultimately proven right; Hitler's decision to leave the UK intact, albeit staggered, eventually cost him the 2nd front he could not afford, so his disbelief was understandable, if his lack of activity wasn't. 3) Stresemann is a fascinating figure in history, and had it not been for the crash of the stock market, he could very well have gone down as the man who rebuilt Germany. In order to understand Stresemann it is necessary to review the political situation in Europe at the time: It was probably the most politically polarized region in world history, with the extreme right ( fascists) and left ( socialists) wings struggling for dominance over the hearts and minds of a continent completely dissatsfied with the monarchies and democracies which they blamed for their present state of economic desolation, famine, and violent upheaval, and the unprecedented human destruction which had preceded it in WWI...it was a cauldron of political opposition and armed revolt, and Germany was it's hottest point. A setting for staggering hyperinfaltion, unbeleivable unemployment, poverty, and deprivation, foreign armies sent in as debt collectors...governments rising and falling, literally overnight...a diplomatic pariah and a domestic battleground for the daily armed confrontations between gangs of fascits and communists...This was the Germany into which Gustav Stresemann emerged as a player of note. Stresemann himslef was the ultimate compromiser..an incredibly persuasive former monarchist who had evolved into a republican due to genuine dissatisfaction with the ills of that system, he soon began to establish some sort of order iin the chaos...He managed to persuade foreign powers, including the US, to offer some sort of relief from the incredible demands of Versailles, he persoanlly conviinced striking miners to go back to work, he capped infaltion, re-established control over the production of currency, persuaded the French to cease their occupation of the Ruhr...In short, performed virtual miracles where none had seemed possible. German industry creaked back nto action, unemployment lowered for the 1st time in years, many of the riots and battles ceased, and internationally Germany was welcomed into the council of the League of Nations, and Stresemann himself heldped draw up two incredibly important agreements; the Dawes Plan, whereby the US helped underwrite European economic recovery from WWI, particularly in France and Germany, and the Treaty of Locarno, a peace agreement which, had it not been for the stock market crash, would probably have been the most instrumental document leading to peace in the 20th century...FO course all of this fell apart with the stock market collapse...when the US pulled it's economic support the entire construct fell apart, and the from the ashes arose another, different German saviour...and we know the rest. As for Stresemann himself, he was quite mercurial, but hardly a precursor to Hitler...In fact the one party he never really managed to get on board his plan was the extreme right, who largely saw him as having betrayed German interests by collaberating with the socialists. Ironically, the ight wing seemed to reset Stresemann's sucess even more than they had felt scorn for the failures of those before him, and right wing consolidation coincided with Stresemann's rise to prominence, as the elsction of Hindenburg in 25 attests. When Stresemann fell, the right wing largely used him as an example of the failure of the compromiser, and thus helped to justify their own intolerance of anything remotely assosciated with the left wing. Phew...no erase...Hope you enjoy the read, mango.
Mango...something I left out of the second version; An image I have always had of Stresemann was of a man tryig to stand on two overturned beer barrells ( it could be two rafts in a busy river, or two horsebacks, but this is about Germany... ), a foot on each, and trying to keep the barrells from rolling in opposite directions merely by his own weight and ability to balance...just thought it mught be a helpfull illustration. Peace JAG
Not entirely accurate as A) the British were offered peace terms long before the US got involved, and declined..ie, they could have survuved without US aid. B) For most of the war Halifax was the port of greatest activity with regards to supplying the UK, and the ability of the Royal Navy to maintain the lifeline to Canada was both demonstrated, albeit at great cost, and underrated by Americans in terms of it's admitedly smaller but still vital ability to provide a protected area of war production to the belieagured British defiance of Germany. The rates of U-Boat success are an interesting battle of strategies and wills, especially the decision to group them ( wolfpacks0 rather than leave them independant, but the greatest blows to the U-Boat's success were A) the deveopment of better sonar, B) the improvement of the range of Atlantic patroling aircraft, and C) the capture and deciphering of an Enigma machine...none of these develoments owe that much to the US. Marshall Plan was a counter to the feared appela of Communism, and the threat of the USSR, not really a benevolent hand out.
Oh, I agree that they were not independant, and have called the possibility of USSR success against the Nazis by themselves as highly unlikely...but there is little doubt that if anyone could have done it it would have been them, and what is more, the way it was done, they are owed by far the most credit...and we are owed the least. So to expect gratitude for us being able to contribute to figting our enemies, albeit later than our allies, and without having to fight on our own land but theirs, is incredibly slanted.
MacBeth, I stick to the position that the UK could not have survived 1943 without lend-lease and US participation. I refer you to: http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwii/atlantic/default.aspx "In May 1942 German experts had produced a study which concluded that if the U-boats were able to sink a monthly average of 700,000 tons of Allied merchant ships for the rest of the year, Britain, despite all the efforts of shipbuilding yards on both sides of the Atlantic, would be doomed." From the beginning of 1942 to March 1943, 7 million tons of merchant shipping was sunk. By the end of 1942, Germans were sinking 650,000 tons of shipping a month. The vast majority of the ships replacing those sunk were American. And it was only AFTER this period, that the critical advances you speak of emerged. The fact that the UK DID in fact survive this period, totally hinged on: 1) In August 1940 the US gave Britain 50 destroyers in exchange for Atlantic naval bases 2) After August 1941, by an agreement called the Atlantic Charter which Roosevelt made with Churchill, convoys were defended by the US Navy. This also had the collateral effect of permitting the UK to shift her naval forces to the Mediterrean to prevent the resupply of the German Africa Corp, thus protecting Suez Canal, the Middle East, India, and Russia's southern flank, culminating with the British victory at El Alamein in late 1942. Yet another collateral effect is the ability of the UK to conduct the Russian convoys, which permitted the victory at Stalingrad in late 1942/Early 1943. Enigma machine or sonar, it wouldn't have made any different if the UK had no ships to place the sonars on, nor any troops, tanks, or artillery with which to ambush Rommel in Africa (it takes ships, remember, to carry them there)... If you just consider how close UK was to collapse WITH American support, then I simply cannot see how you can argue that UK could survive without American support. The same case can be argued with the Russians. I readily admit that the vast majority of sacrifices made, in terms of men, land and resources were by the Russians. And that the least amount of sacrifice was made by the U.S. But all that sacrifice by both the Russians and Brits would have been for nothing, without U.S. support, because they would have lost the war anyways. Yet with American support, the UK barely won the Battle of the Atlantic (with our ships), and the Russians barely won the critical battles of 1942/3 (with our ammo). That's all i claim, no more, no less. And in my book, that's saving the Europeans ass.
http://home.datacomm.ch/rusbotschaft/presrel/great.htm THE GREAT PATRIOTIC WAR, 1941 - 1945 While preparing for the war against the USSR Germany created a vast military and economic potential based on its own resources and those of the European countries it occupied. Germany together with its allies accumulated for aggression against the USSR 190 divisions, including 19 tank and 13 motorized divisions. The enemy military group numbered 5,500,000 people, about 4,500 tanks and assault guns, 47,200 artillery pieces and mortars, 4,980 combat planes, 192 warships. Germany planned to wage a Blitzkrieg against the USSR. Efforts of the USSR aimed at establishing a system of collective security in the 1930s failed. The Non-aggression Pact with Germany signed in August 1939 helped to delay the war. However, the secret protocols signed together with the Pact and with the German-Soviet Treaty on Friendship and Borders of September 1939 were incompatible with the rules of international law and undermined the country¡¯s prestige. The efficiency of efforts of the Soviet leadership to improve defense capability was impaired by serious mistakes in economic policy, military construction, mass repressions against army personnel, as well as in determining probable time of the beginning of war, that Stalin and his closest associates are mainly to blame for. By June 1941 the Red Army had 187 divisions, including 40 tank and 20 motorized divisions. It numbered about 3,000,000 people, more than 38,000 artillery pieces and mortars, 13,100 tanks (8,800 in operating condition), 8,700 warplanes (7,400 in operating condition). The North, Baltic and Black Sea navies numbered 182 warships and 1,400 warplanes. The Soviet troops were neither fully manned nor equipped with tanks, planes, anti-aircraft guns, vehicles and engineer equipment. Troops and officers were inadequately trained. The first period of war (22 June 1941 - 18 November 1942). Repulse of invasion and frustration of the Blitzkrieg plan. The first period included 3 campaigns: summer - autumn 1941, winter 1941 - 1942, summer - autumn 1942. On June 22, 1941, the Nazi Germany traitorously invaded the USSR. Having created overwhelming superiority in the direction of the main blows, the aggressor breached the defenses of the Soviet troops and seized strategic initiative and supremacy in the air. Frontier battles of the initial period of war led to defeat of the Red Army. It lost 850,000 killed and wounded, 9,500 guns, more than 6,000 tanks, about 3,500 warplanes. About 1,000,000 people were taken prisoners. The enemy occupied Lithuania, Latvia, Belorussia, a considerable part of Estonia, Ukraine and Moldavia and advanced up to 300-600 km, loosing 100,000 killed, nearly 40% of tanks and 950 warplanes. On the 23rd of June the General Headquarters was established (from August 8 - General High Command). The Directive of the PCS of the USSR and the Central Committee of the C.P.S.U.(B) of June 29, 1941 addressed to the Party and Soviet organs of the front-line regions and provisions of the Stalin¡¯s radio-speech of July 3, 1941 represented the mobilization program to repulse the enemy. The absolute power was concentrated in the State Defense Committee established on June 30. Stalin became the Supreme Commander-in-Chief on August 8. The forming of people¡¯s volunteer corps began in June. On July 18, 1941 the Central Committee of the C.P.S.U.(B) adopted the resolution on Organization of Struggle in the Rear of German Troops. The main military events of the 1941 summer - autumn campaign were the Battle of Smolensk, the defense of Leningrad and the beginning of its blockade, military catastrophe of the Soviet troops in the Ukraine, the defense of Odessa, the beginning of the defense of Sevastopol, loss of Donbass, the defensive period of the Battle of Moscow. The Red Army retreated for 850-1200 km. Nevertheless, the enemy was stopped on main directions near Leningrad, Moscow and Rostov and passed to the defense. The German land forces lost 750,000 people, 2,400 tanks and lots of other weapons and equipment. Air Forces lost 1,400 warplanes only during the defensive period of the Battle Moscow. The winter campaign of 1941-1942 began with counterattack of the Soviet troops near Moscow. The threat to Moscow and North Caucasus was removed, more than 60 towns were liberated. Nearly 50 enemy divisions were defeated. During the 1942 summer - autumn campaign the Soviet troops had an unrealistic mission to accomplish: to defeat the enemy completely and liberate the entire territory of the country. The main military events happened in the south-west direction: defeat of the Crimean front, military catastrophe of the Soviet troops in the Kharkov operation; Voronezh - Voroshilovgrad, Donbass, Stalingrad defensive operations, North Caucasus battles. The enemy advanced 500-650 km, reached Volga, occupied a number of the Main Caucasian Range passes. The Germans occupied the territory where 42% of population lived before the war, 1/3 of gross output was produced and 45% of sown area was located. The economy was being put on a war footing. A lot of enterprises (2,593 - only in the second half of 1941, including 1,523 big ones), 2,300,000 heads of cattle were transferred to the eastern regions of the country. Economy transformation was completed by the summer of 1942. During the first half of 1942 10,000 warplanes, 11,000 tanks and about 54,000 artillery pieces were produced. The production increased by over 50% during the second half of 1942. The Soviet-English Agreement of July 12, 1941, the Moscow Conference of the Representatives of the USSR, USA and Great Britain, held on September 29 - October 1, 1941, Declaration of 26 states on military union of the countries fighting against the Fascism of January 1, 1942 and the Soviet-American agreement of June 2, 1942 provided the basis for the anti-Hitler coalition. The second period of war (November 19, 1942 - end of 1943). Radical turn in the war. The Soviet active forces numbered 6,600,000 people, 77,8000 artillery pieces and mortars, 7,350 tanks and SPAs, 4,544 warplanes. The navy had at its disposal 300 ships of basic classes, 610 warplanes, 440,000 people. Enemy forces included 6,200,000 people, 51,700 artillery pieces and mortars, 5,080 tanks and assault guns, 3,500 warplanes and up to 200 ships. The second period of war included 2 campaigns: winter 1942-1943 and summer-autumn 1943. The USSR strengthened its war economy and developed army and Navy technical equipment. In 1943 24,100 tanks and SPAs, 103,300 guns and 24,900 warplanes were produced. The main military events of the 1942-1943 winter campaign were the Stalingrad and the North Caucasian offensive operations, Leningrad blockade breach. The Red Army advanced 600-700 km to the West, defeated 100 enemy divisions - 40% of all Nazi forces on the Soviet-German front. The decisive event of the 1943 summer-autumn campaign was the Battle of Kursk. The partisans played an important role. During the battle for Dnepr 38,000 settlements, including 160 cities and towns were liberated. On other fronts offensive operations were undertaken in the regions of Smolensk and Bryansk. As a result of its combat operations the Red Army advanced up to 500-1300 km and destroyed 218 enemy divisions. Germany¡¯s satellites started to look for ways to withdraw from the war. The Tehran Conference (November 28 to December 1, 1943) was an important stage in developing international relations between the Allies. During the 3rd period of the war (January 1944 - May 9, 1945) the Red Army drove the enemy from the Soviet land, liberated the captive European nations and forced Germany to unconditional surrender. By the beginning of that period Germany and other Axis Powers had accumulated 4,834,000 men, 54,570 artillery pieces and mortars, 3,700 tanks and assault guns, 3,073 airplanes and about 300 ships on the Eastern Front. Meanwhile, the Soviet active forces numbered 6,165,000 men, 92,650 artillery pieces and mortars, 5,357 tanks and SPA, 8,506 planes and more than 300 ships of basic types. The period included 3 campaigns: winter 1944, summer-autumn 1944, and 1945 European campaign. In winter 1944 the Red Army carried out an offensive in the Ukraine, completely destroyed the Army Group South, then approached the Romanian border and carried the war into its territory. Almost simultaneously another offensive was launched in the Leningrad and Novgorod regions ending the siege of Leningrad. The Crimea was liberated as a result of the Crimea offensive operation. In the course of that campaign the Soviet troops advanced 250-450 km and eventually came to the Czechoslovak frontier. During summer - autumn 1944 compaign the Soviet troops completely liberated Belorussia, the Ukraine and the Baltic republics, and partially liberated Czechoslovakia; Romania was forced to capitulate and entered the war against Germany; the occupants were drawn out of the Soviet transpolar territories and northern regions of Norway. Successes scored by the Soviet army contributed to the progress made by the leaders of the USSR, Great Britain and the USA at the Yalta Conference in the Crimea. The 1945 campaign in Europe ended in the German unconditional surrender. On June 24 there was a Victory Parade held in Moscow. An agreement on the post-war arrangement for Europe was reached by the leaders of the three Great Powers at the Potsdam Conference which took place from July to August 1945. On August 9, 1945 the USSR, honoring its commitments to the Allies, launched hostilities against Japan. In the course of the Manchuria operation the Soviet forces destroyed the Kwantung Army, the enemy¡¯s major force, and liberated southern Sakhalin and the Kuril Islands. Those successes were crucial to get Japan out of the war, which formalized its unconditional surrender on September 2, 1945. The Great Patriotic War is one of the greatest events in the world history. By its scale, violent character, human losses and material damage incurred it is unmatched. That armed conflict unprecedented in human history covered a period of 1,418 days and nights. At various stages of the war both sides of the Soviet-German front engaged from 8 to 12,800,000 men, 84,000 to 163,000 artillery pieces and mortars, and from 5,700 to 20,000 armored vehicles. Over the four years of war 29,500,000 people were mobilized in the USSR, which adds up to 34,400,000 counting those in military service at the beginning of the war. The Soviet Army carried out more than 50 strategic and 259 front-line operations, as well as some 1,000 army operations, 75 per cent of which were offensive. The Red Army destroyed 607 divisions - the main forces of the Third Reich. All the belligerents suffered substantial human casualties in the Great Patriotic War. Some 27,000,000 Soviet people were killed in battle, in captivity or in the occupied territories. The German aggressors completely or partially destroyed and burnt 1,710 towns, more than 70,000 villages as well as over 6 millions buildings. 25,000,000 people were rendered homeless. The industrial infrastructure suffered heavily. About 32,000 plants and 65,000 km of railways were left in ruins. Agriculture was seriously damaged. The occupants devastated 98,000 collective farms, 1,876 state farms and 2,890 machine-and-tractor plants. Germany and its satellites lost over 10,000,000 men on the Eastern Front, while its overall death toll in World War II amounted to 13,600,000. In WWII Hitler¡¯s Germany suffered severe materiel losses, of which 75 per cent occurred on the Soviet-German front, including 50,878 armored vehicles, 493,439 artillery pieces and mortars, and 101,671 warplanes. The key outcome of the Great Patriotic War is that the Soviet people and their armed forces withstood the extremely fierce and violent struggle, smashed Germany¡¯s mighty war machine and beat the nazi ideology, a spiritual basis for planning and waging annexation wars. The consequences of the German defeat proved to be unprecedented, the country lost its territorial integrity and remained stateless for a number of years. Experience of international cooperation, gained by the states forming the anti-Hitler coalition during that war, enriched human history. The system established by the Allies at the final phase of the war had a lot of positive aspects which paved the way for new developments in the field of international relations, such as the establishment of the United Nations, joint actions to eradicate nazism and militarism in Germany, and formation of various international mechanisms for discussing international problems. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well, putting communism vs. capitalism aside, I think everybody should pay tribute to the heroic performances of the Russians in the WWII. Without their contributions, more of Wertern soldiers would die in millions. The Third Reich would undoubtedly last much, much longer than it had - I'm gonna play the "if" game too- pointing to the possible horrific consequences of the suspected NUCLEAR programs the Nazi's were developing, if those f**kers ever got a hold on atomic bombs, it'd be all over. So quit hogging all the credits, the fact is the major battles were fought in USSR and won by USSR. While you can argue that the USA provided irreplaceable chemical resources the USSR need - which I doubt was as critical as it's said to be, given the natural resources the USSR had- the same can be said with more certainty that the USSR played a irreplaceable role in the WWII. Give it a rest.
Seems like a confluence of unique events that made an alliance with the USSR impossible at the time in the 1930's. Post WW II, we had five decades of West/NATO versus USSR/Warsaw Pact, so the alliance of Great Britian + US + USSR in WW II was just a temporary situation to get past the common enemy of Germany. Stresemann wasn't dealt the best of hands to play, so right wing resentment/dislike of him appears to be wrong. He probably got the most out of diplomacy that anybody could and Germany was lacking in the ability department to do anything by force in that timeframe. Yes and it was much more detailed than I expected.
1) Hey, was that a shot? 2) Yeah, can you imagine how pissed I was when I got through all that, and it erased!?!? 1st version was better... 3)I expected/am still hoping for more of a resonse, and some way to carry on this discussion...it's probably hard to tell, but I love this stuff!
It wasn't a shot. I don't know what to add as a response because this particular topic area is something that is a frontier for me, but a strength for you.
Probably the single most offensive passage you've ever written on this board. I can say with 100% certainty that you have no idea what you are talking about. Comparing so-called 'Pax Americana' with Soviet imperialism is ridiculous to the core. It would be funny but for the disservice it does American foreign policy and the trivial attitude with which it treats the fate of hundreds of millions murdered and oppressed under Soviet rule. You have the gall to call other people revisionist. In the worst case it was merely choosing between the lesser of two evils. In reality even you should at least admit there was ideological belief behind much of US foreign policy, not power seeking. Your conclusion is such an oversimplification that it is laughable. Its like saying that shooting someone about to rape your wife and kill your family is 'self-serving.' What a load of CRAP. I don't know where you get this stuff. Old issues of the World Marxist Review? Eastern Europeans seem to disagree with you. I believe the resent the Soviets juuuuust a tad more than they do the US. Juuuuuuuuuust a tad more than Western Europeans resent the US. Why? Well, they were rolled over, killed, tortured, and oppressed by the Americans, as Eastern Europeans were by the Soviets. To argue that Europeans in general have a RIGHT to be resentful of the US in relation to the Cold War is pure left wing propaganda. Unworthy of serious comment, which I really would just ignore if the possibility didn't exist that someone would read your drivel and take it for a 'truth.' And btw: I know you didn't bring up von riboflavin, but you did bring up the paper (adding truth to my 'much ballyhoo'd' tally ...
"Why? Well, they were rolled over, killed, tortured, and oppressed by the Soviets." I believe I just lost my train of thought in that last paragraph. The sentence was supposed to read as above but edit is off. Also, there is a serious problem with MacBeth's assertion that Europeans don't owe us anything. -We simply could have continued doing business with the Nazis. As Professor Ribbentrop will admit, Germany did not really WANT to go to war with the US. Had we not had ideological reasons to oppose Germany, we faced no threat from them, as MacBeth asserts. It was not self-interest that drove us into the war. That is simplistic crap. Yes, Germany declared war on us, but that was well after we had chosen sides. And it does great disservice to all the men and women who ENTERED our armed forces to fight the Nazis because they thought they were evil, not because they gave a damn about world politics. But because they felt freedom was worth fighting for. -In none of the counterfactual worlds that MacBeth likes to play in would Western Europe have been liberated without the US. It is inconceivable that UK/Canadian forces could have landed in Italy or in France, nor that they could have controlled the air as the 'allies' did. If you removed the USSR from the equation entirely, that does not mean that scenarios could not work out in a counterfactual war where US industrial might could have allowed the liberation of Western Europe. -As Treeman has pointed out Western Europe was saved from Soviet occupation. A big problem for MacBeth is that all his arguments on how great the Soviet war machine was work against him here. I seriously doubt he will propose that the UK/Canadians could have stopped the Soviets from occupying the whole continent. It was US presence that stopped the Soviets, and it was the US nuclear umbrella that KEEP it out of Soviet hands. It really isn't revisionist history to say we 'saved Europe' or that we 'liberated Europe.'
