http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=390525 Mood changes as America finds war is not a video game By Andrew Gumbel in Los Angeles 25 March 2003 All of a sudden, brutal reality is kicking in. Before the Iraq invasion started, many Americans imagined the campaign in terms of Hollywood movies or the video-game abstraction of the television coverage of the first Gulf War – that virtual reality in which we drop bombs and only the enemy dies, and off-camera at that. But after the setbacks, guerrilla-style ambushes, downed helicopters and disturbing images of US soldiers dying or being taken prisoner over the past two days, the mood has changed abruptly, "My God, this is getting much messier than I thought," was the reaction of one young Californian nursery school teacher yesterday. Her colleagues all concurred. Across Los Angeles, the mood was overwhelmingly one of consternation and just a little dread. "I have a sick feeling about where this is all heading. They made us believe this would be a cakewalk, and now look what is happening," another woman, a writer married to an entertainment lawyer, said. "This can only make the world hate us Americans more." In what is perhaps a sign of the times, she did not want to be identified by name. It is hard to know exactly how representative such views are, especially since southern California has been a bastion of anti-war sentiment. At least some people who believe in the war were quoted yesterday saying that casualties and setbacks were to be expected as part of the mission. But it is also true that the Bush administration massively raised expectations regarding the speed and ease of the military operation to topple Saddam Hussein. Before the war started last week, the President himself talked – in his televised statements, in his 6 March news conference and in his weekly radio addresses – as though the fighting was already over and the reconstruction of Iraq had begun. Earlier this month, with war already looking inevitable and dominating the news, 43 per cent of respondents in a New York Times/CBS poll said they expected a quick and successful campaign. By the end of last week, with the first bombs raining down on Baghdad and ground forces racing to secure the oilfields in the south, that number had risen to 63 per cent. More than half said they thought the war would end in a matter of weeks. Now, however, the trend has been reversed. In another poll published in yesterday's Washington Post, 54 per cent now believe the United States will sustain "significant" casualties in Iraq, up from 37 per cent in a similar poll taken on the first day of the war last Thursday. One respondent in the new Washington Post/ABC poll, Daphne Nugent, 40, from New York, commented: "I didn't expect there to be this much trouble. And I'm a little upset by what I'm hearing in terms of the casualties and the prisoners of war. I thought it would end pretty easily and quickly, the war part of it anyway, not the occupation part." Other New Yorkers, including those who survived the destruction of the World Trade Centre, have also described their mixed feelings at seeing similar scenes of buildings under aerial bombardment in Baghdad. Financial markets are also reacting. After eight straight days of gains, the Dow Jones index plunged 300 points by lunchtime yesterday, although it later recovered slightly. Crude oil prices are also rising in response to the prospect of a longer war. Several things make this war very different from other recent US military campaigns. It is much less dependent on air power alone, which has made the fighting and the dying much more immediate. And it is much more overtly about taking territory. This is no quick in and out, as were the Nato campaigns in Bosnia in 1995 and Kosovo in 1999. As several soldiers at the front have come to appreciate, this is very different from 1991, when the US-led coalition concentrated on kicking Iraqi forces out of a country, Kuwait, that had invited it in to do so. "People thought the Iraqis would be waving little American flags like it was occupied France in World War Two," Vincent Cannistraro, a retired CIA counter-terrorism expert, commented. "This is not an occupied country. It is Iraq and it is run by Iraqis, and for better or worse they are not welcoming Americans as liberators." Both pro-war and anti-war voices agree, in fact, that this is likely to turn into the most in-your-face conflict that American troops – and, just as significantly, American public opinion – have faced since Vietnam. "This kind of thing has not been seen on US television screens for more than 30 years," Sandy Cate, an anthropology professor from San Francisco, said. "You've got one, perhaps two, generations who have grown up with no idea of what war is really like, other than the cartoon violence they see at the movies. Well, now they are learning." Part of the change in attitude is due to the media. Unlike the first Gulf War, when journalists were kept well away from the front, reporters are now "embedded" with army units and equipped with the technology to transmit words and images from the field. Some media critics have worried about journalists over-identifying with their units, but they also concede that the arrangement is providing much more detailed and less sanitised coverage than in 1991. These are very early days, and expert opinion is divided on the degree of public tolerance for casualties. One sociologist, James Burk, told The Washington Post he thought the public would accept casualties as long as they are incurred "in pursuit of a mission that they think is reasonable". But others, including John Mueller of Ohio State University, believe tolerance will be very low. Nobody in government has so much as mentioned body bags, he observed. Civilian Casualties: ***WARNING THESE PICTURES ARE EXTREMELY GRUESOME AND DISTURBING HOWEVER THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS IN WARS. SO BEFORE YOU CLICK ON THE LINK BELOW HEED THE WARNING, DON'T CLICK ON THE LINK AND THEN B!TCH AFTERWARDS. IF YOU DON'T THINK YOU CAN HANDLE IT DON'T CLICK ON IT*** http://chapelhill.indymedia.org/news/2003/03/3370.php
Meanwhile, back on planet Earth, support for Operation Iraqi Freedom is increasing in the United States, England, and Australia. Also, do you have any pictures of the 1,000,000 Arab Muslims killed or tortured by Saddam over the past 15 years? Maybe then a more balanced picture of brutality can be told.
The pictures are from indymedia.com (Red Flag #1), with no captions. I would withhold judgement on them until more info could arrive. Even if this is the result of accidents in US bombing, this war has nothing on the fire-bombings of Germany and Japan. We need perspectives and do feel grateful that we live in a more humane time.
Basra: Why they are not cheering Paul Reynolds BBC News Online world affairs correspondent They were supposed to be cheering in the streets as the American and British tanks rolled in, just as they did in France in 1944. Images of wounded civilians have been widely shown in the Arab world On 18 March, the New York Times reported: "Military and allied officials familiar with the planning of the upcoming campaign say they hope that a successful and 'benign' occupation of Basra that results in flag-waving crowds hugging British and American soldiers will create an immediate and positive image worldwide while also undermining Iraqi resistance elsewhere." The fact is that Basra is not undergoing a benign occupation. It has just been declared a military target by British forces which have come under attack from inside. This was a city which the British spokesman Colonel Chris Vernon said early on was not of military importance. In the scheme of things, it still isn't. But it has become a problem. 'Under threat' What has happened? The explanation, according to British and American officials, is that Saddam Hussein's forces are still oppressing the people who cannot therefore show their true emotions. Right now they're still under threat - Saddam is still maybe alive and his goons and his assassination squads are still there Paul Wolfowitz, US Deputy Defence Secretary Dr John Reid, the British Labour Party chairman compared the irregular Saddam forces dressed in black - known as Saddam's Fedayeen - to the SS in Nazi Germany. The US Deputy Defence Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, one of those who wants Iraq to be at the start of a democratization process across the Arab world, told the BBC: "I think that when the people of Basra no longer feel the threat of that regime, you are going to see an explosion of joy and relief, but right now they're still under threat. "Saddam is still maybe alive and his goons and his assassination squads are still there." Bad memories The people remember, it is said, what happened in 1991 when on 15 February, President George Bush senior urged "the Iraqi military and the Iraqi people to take matters in their own hands and force Saddam Hussein the dictator to step aside". Bombs are reported to have been dropped on civilian areas The people did try, both in the Kurdish areas of the north and the mainly Shia areas of the south, including Basra. They were cut down. The Kurds fled into the mountains of southern Turkey, but the Shias (and others like the communists) in the south had nowhere to go. The London-based organisation Indict, which seeks to put Iraqi leaders on trial for war crimes, has accounts of mass executions in Basra and other southern cities as the Ba'ath party and the Republican Guard re-imposed their control. Not cheering However, it might not be as simple as that. Consider what happened in Basra last Saturday when there were air raids. The Qatari television channel al-Jazeera had a team in the city and it sent back graphic pictures of dead and wounded civilians which were widely shown in the Arab world. But these images have been all but ignored in the West, which seems more interested in pictures of the American prisoners of war. We don't want Saddam, but we don't want them [the Americans] to stay afterwards Mustafa Mohammed Ali, Nasiriya People do not take kindly to being bombed, even by "friendly forces". British forces, if they enter Basra to counter resistance there, will have to follow the advice of Colonel Tim Collins of the Royal Irish Regiment who told his men before the war started: "Tread carefully". There is an interesting article in the Guardian of 25 March from its correspondent, James Meek, who has been with the US Marines in Nasiriya. He shows how hostility to Saddam Hussein is not necessarily converted into support for the invasion. He managed to talk not just to marines but to locals, one of whom Mustafa Mohammed Ali was a surgical assistant at the Saddam hospital in the city. The sufferers from sanctions may take time to be convinced that the invaders are bringing them relief He said that in fighting on Sunday bombs were dropped on civilian areas, killing 10 people. That day, two dead marines were brought to the hospital and he made this admission: "When I saw the dead Americans I cheered in my heart." And yet he did not support Saddam Hussein: "We don't want Saddam, but we don't want them [the Americans] to stay afterwards." Meek quoted another man, a farmer named Said Yahir, as saying that the marines had come to his house and had taken his son, his rifle and 3m dinars (£500; $800). "This is your freedom that you're talking about? This is my life savings," he said. Said Yahir himself had taken part in the uprising of 1991. He is not cheering in 2003. Effect of sanctions There are two other points: the effect of years of sanctions and the effect of nationalism. Although the sanctions regime allows for the provision of food and medicine, this is not always delivered to the poor. Saddam Hussein is not blamed but the United Nations and the United States are. The sufferers from sanctions may take time to be convinced that the invaders are bringing them relief. Iraqi nationalism is another powerful influence. Those who know the country say that it can hold people together, whether they are Kurds, Sunnis or Shias. It appears to be a factor in the current phenomenon. A coming together often happens to a people under siege, and a siege is what the Iraqis are now experiencing. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2884769.stm
This just on TV. The residents of Basra seem to be starting an uprising against the Iraqi military. The Iraqi people finally had enough.
The southern Iraqis apparently are quite upset w/ US from 10 years ago when the uprising was not supported. Anecdotally, some were questioning whether we were here to stay this time. As for the war, the 'body-bag' logic was more of an issue prior to 9-11. Americans may be surprised and saddened by the war, but if you believe the polls, support is not wavering.
Check CNN for a report of Basra uprising. Also ITN is apparently the ones that are breaking the story.
War is not a video game. No sh*t? Damn, and I was just about to by Inchon II for my X-Box... Johnny Blaze - what is this fascination you seem to have with pictures of dead people?
NO ****!!! An UPRISING!!! UPRISING ARE US! I seriously hope this is the case. Those pictures are terrible, i looked at 2 and then closed the window, do not, DO NOT open the link to those photos if you want to keep your lunch down. WARNING that those photos are really graphic. Just terrible to see.
Uprising has begun. http://www.CNN.com Revolt reported under way in Basra U.S. forces face sandstorms in northward advance BASRA, Iraq (CNN) --British commanders said it appeared a popular uprising against the ruling Baath Party was under way in Basra as British troops and tanks were maneuvering under the cover of darkness near the southern Iraq city. Juliet Bremner, a correspondent with the British network ITV with troops outside the city, said the commanders told her they had seen groups of 40 to 50 citizens at various locations on the streets and that British forces had taken out an Iraqi mortar that had been firing on the apparent protesters. Bremner and her ITV colleague Romilly Weeks said British forces were preparing to enter the city if they determined such a move would be useful. The residents of Basra, an important center of Iraq's Shiite population, staged an uprising after the Persian Gulf War of 1991. But without backup from any coalition forces that had driven Saddam Hussein's regime out of Kuwait, hundreds of thousands were killed. In Washington, a U.S. official said there were "mixed reports" about a possible civilian uprising in Basra. "It's more like chaos than anything else," the official said. Earlier Tuesday, British forces repelled a battalion-size counterattack in Basra. They also seized a top Baath Party official -- a move meant to inspire a popular uprising, said Col. Chris Vernon, British military spokesman in Kuwait City. 20 Iraqi militia members were killed in the raid, Vernon said. "Whap, we're in. Whap, we're out, and 20 of them are gone," Vernon said. Basra, Iraq's second-largest city, had been largely without electricity and water since Friday. (Full story) Coalition forces have begun trucking water from Umm Qasr, now under British control, to Basra. The International Red Cross said 40 percent of Basra's water supply has been restored, according to U.S. Air Force Maj. Gen. Victor Renuart. Once coalition forces better secure cities north of Umm Qasr, such as Basra and Nasiriya, they will start delivering food, Renuart said at U.S. Central Command briefing in Qatar. Iraqi Trade Minister Muhammad Mahdi al-Salih on Tuesday accused the coalition of preventing U.N. shipments of food and medicine in the Persian Gulf from reaching civilians. Meanwhile, U.S. troops continued to make inroads toward Baghdad, setting up a heavily armed column of coalition forces from Umm Qasr up the Euphrates River to south of Karbala, about 60 miles south of the Iraqi capital. Elements of the 3rd Squadron, 7th Cavalry of the 3rd Infantry Division on Tuesday fought off enemy fire and a blinding sandstorm in pushing north of the Euphrates. The units crossed a bridge packed with explosives, but Iraqi forces had not rigged them, said CNN's Walter Rodgers, who is embedded with the unit. Speaking at the Pentagon on Tuesday, President Bush saluted coalition forces for their "steady advance." "We cannot know the duration of this war, yet we know its outcome," said Bush, who outlined a $74.7 billion emergency spending request that he called "directly related to winning this war." (Full story, breakdown of costs) U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said Tuesday the war in Iraq is "still much closer to the beginning than the end." Thirty-nine U.S. and British military personnel have been confirmed killed since the Iraqi conflict began. (Coalition casualties) Other developments • British Prime Minister Tony Blair will come to the United States on Wednesday to meet with U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan and discuss war strategy with Bush at Camp David, Maryland, sources said. Blair said Tuesday a "huge amount already has been achieved" toward the goal of ousting Saddam. (Full story) • Saudi Arabian Foreign Minister Saud al-Faisal has offered a peace proposal to end the war in Iraq, but Washington swiftly shot it down. "We're not looking for peace negotiations," a U.S. State Department official said. "We're looking for elimination of this regime." • The U.S. soldier suspected of killing a fellow U.S. soldier and injuring 15 others in a grenade and small arms attack will be taken to Germany to await formal charges after a military magistrate found it "probable" he is guilty, U.S. military officials said Tuesday. • A sandstorm slowed a battle that had gone on all night in Nasiriya -- the second straight night that U.S. Marines engaged what U.S. commanders said was stiff resistance from paramilitary groups and not regular Iraqi army units. The city, home to key bridges across the Euphrates River in southern Iraq, has been the scene of the most intense fighting to date: Ten Marines were killed in combat there Sunday, 12 were injured and 16 are considered missing, a senior commander in the battle told CNN. (Full story) • A U.S. F-16 fighter jet early Monday mistakenly fired on a U.S. Patriot missile battery about 30 miles south of Najaf, Iraq, U.S. Combined Forces Air Component Command said. There were no coalition casualties in the strike, which officials said was under investigation. It was the second friendly fire incident of the war. Two British pilots were killed Sunday when a Patriot missile shot down their Tornado GR4 as it returned from a mission over Iraq. • At least four UH-60 Black Hawk helicopters have been unloaded in the Mediterranean port of Iskenderun, Turkey, and will be transported to various bases in Turkey, U.S. military officials said. The helicopters, sent under a NATO decision to protect Turkey during a war, will be used for medical evacuation purposes, officials said. • Iraq's information minister said 16 civilians were killed and more than 90 others wounded late Monday evening and early Tuesday morning in the coalition bombing of Baghdad. At least five bombing waves hit the Iraqi capital after darkness fell, striking an Iraqi air force complex and Saddam International Airport. Coalition planes also struck the key northern city of Mosul for the fourth night in a row. (Full story) • The remains of two U.S. Marines -- 2nd Lt. Therrel S. Childers, 30, of Harrison County, Mississippi, and Lance Cpl. Jose Gutierrez, 22, of Los Angeles, California -- arrived Tuesday at Dover Air Force Base in Delaware, base officials said. Childers and Gutierrez were killed in action Friday in southern Iraq, the U.S. Defense Department said. • Intelligence reports suggest Republican Guard units may have been ordered to use chemical weapons against U.S. forces if they cross a "red line" -- a symbolic, if imprecise, circle around Baghdad. "That doesn't mean they will do it," one official said, "but there have been reports such orders may have been issued." (Full story) • In what sources called a new strategy in the war, coalition aircraft on the USS Theodore Roosevelt in the eastern Mediterranean are switching from bombing campaigns with set targets to missions where they are authorized to attack "targets of opportunity" and to supply close air support to ground forces. (Full story) • Abu Dhabi TV on Monday broadcast video shot by Iraqi TV in Baghdad of two U.S. pilots whom Iraq claims it captured after their Apache attack helicopter went down near Karbala. The footage shows Chief Warrant Officers Ronald D. Young Jr. and David S. Williams wearing flight suits and appearing to be in good condition. (Full story) • Russian President Vladimir Putin has told Bush that Russian companies are not supplying sensitive military equipment to Iraq. Putin made the denial in a telephone conversation Monday evening. The United States had accused privately owned Russian companies of supplying Iraq with antitank missiles, night-vision goggles and radio-jamming equipment that can interfere with planes and bombs. (Full story) CNN Correspondents Christiane Amanpour, Jason Bellini, Tom Mintier, Karl Penhaul, Nic Robertson, Walter Rodgers, Brent Sadler, Martin Savidge, Kevin Sites, Barbara Starr and Alessio Vinci contributed to this report. EDITOR'S NOTE:CNN's policy is to not report information that puts operational security at risk.
No fascination just reality. It just seems to me that most Americans are far removed from the realities of war. The powers that be think these images are too sensitive for Americans to see on TV. Yet it's okay for these people who are actually living through this. How much time has CNN, MSNBC, BBC, FOX etc spent reporting civilian casualties? You would think there weren't any.
Try as the antiwar folks might, they haven't been able to find many civilian casualties. There aren't many. Red Cross visited Baghdad area hospitals a couple of days ago and found that *three* people had died as a result of the bombing. Several scores more were wounded, but only 3 deaths. That is as of a couple of days ago. That is not to say that it is not terrible that they have died/been injured. But it is truly amazing that the collateral damage has been so miniscule. You are trying to amplify the casualties by using graphic pictures in order to evoke an emotional response. I find that a somewhat dishonest approach. At any rate, you might have more civilian casualties to parade around. The Iraqis are now reportedly slaughtering their own people in Basra.
