You will get no argument from me that at his absolute peak Robinson was a more efficient and productive offensive player than Hakeem. That peak was very short lived though.
Does 28.7ppg 10.5 rpg and 6.6apg give you lulz? 24,10 and 6 career numbers that were brought down bc of a bad back? Bird didn't just win alongside HOF players. He proved himself as the man. Something Kobe has arguably done only 1 of his rings. 3 Dominated by Shaq while Kobe got his pretty #'s bc the attention was on the scariest, most dominant big down low. And he still shot poorly. Theres so many guys past and present that can put up the same points and shoot near 50%. He was replaceable. Rings # 4&5? Replaceable. I'd rather take a Bynum, Gasol, Odom front court than Kobe. Replace him with any of the top 10 wing players and they still win. Celtics should have won, but the refs took it away. Watch that game again. Not to mention Kobe might as well have just sat on the bench as he was an afterthought like he has been in many big Finals games. Previous ring? Beat Orlando. Wow. That must have been tough.
A bit overly critical and he exaggerates in some cases but overall he is definitely correct. Kobe is bottom end top 10 all time (8-10 range) but he was a very very lucky player to be put in his position and grossly overhyped in some areas like clutch.
Bird has better career averages than Kobe, more MVP's than Kobe and has led his team to more titles than Kobe.
Robinson is grossly underrated as a C and had amazing regular seasons. Yes his peak in terms of RS was better than Olajuwon but the key word here is regular season. There are plenty of players great in RS but mediocre in PS where things truly matter and there players who step it up in the playoffs. Olajuwon was the latter. Robinson the former. I call players like Robinson, and Karl Malone regular season kings. Don't get me wrong though Robinson is very underrated and doesn't get enough credit. He was a monster its just that he had the misfortune of facing a greater monster in Hakeem.
I have Bird and Kobe ranked around the same. To be frank as great as Bird was he was a sub-par playoff performer which hurts him big time not to mention he had mediocre longevity. However, on the same token were talking about Kobe who was shot sub 40% in Finals series and led his team to two rings in a not very dominant fashion. He was great don't get me wrong but top 10 all time great? Meh. Look at everyone else on the top 10 list. Most of them had amazing playoff runs that Kobe never had.
I think you will be in the heavy minority if your stance is that Bird was a sub-par playoff performer. I wouldn't say his longevity was mediocore either. He finished 4th in MVP voting his rookie year. Then he finished 2nd 3 times in a row, won 3 times in a row, then finished 3rd and 2nd (all in a 8 year span). That means he was arguably the games best player for the first 9 years of his career. That's no where near mediocore. He got hurt in his 10th season and played his final 3 years with a bad back (at ages 33-35). He still finished 10th, 9th and 14th in MVP voting. How can someone who finished in the top 10 in MVP voting 11 times in 13 seasons have mediocore longevity? Not to mention he came into the league at 23 and couldn't go to Germany for outlawed back surgery in the late 80's (two things that greatly contribute to Kobe's longevity, for example).
Michael Jordan had a stacked team during his 2nd 3 peat. It's forgotten how good Ron Harper and Toni Kukoc were, although Harper took a smaller role and had injuries. One reason why I don't discredit players as much from past decades for winning titles on loaded teams is because teams were deeper back then. Teams played each other more often, and most teams had multiple stars or deeper rosters. Some of those players probably would be in the hall of fame had they had more playoff success or not lost against teams like the Bulls, Lakers, Celtics and Pistons. The Pistons and The Bulls (before and during their first 3 peat) won against arguably deeper teams throughout the playoffs. Even expansion teams back then became decent compared to the more recent ones. There were some years when favorites had a shot at losing. Kobe deserves a lot of credit for his performance throughout the 2009 playoffs, the defenders he went through impressed me the most. It helped that he went against depleted teams during the first 2 rounds. Not to discredit Kobe, I'm mentioning that because Lebron and Dirk got similar criticism for the teams they beat. I thought Kobe was by far better than Gasol in the 09 finals until I realized Gasol shot 60%. The offense should have ran through Gasol more, especially since his production is what got the Lakers past teams that gave them trouble. Gasol averaged as many assists as Kobe in the 2010 finals despite not dominating the ball nearly as much. He also didn't get enough credit for the front courts he went against considering all the heat he got for losing to Boston in 2008.
Bird had alot more help than Kobe did. Put it this way, could Bird do what Kobe's doing right now in his 17th season? Hell no. You mention shooting% but fail to mention Bird wasn't a creator off the dribble and never had the burden of going through a period where he was the only option on offense. You put MJ, Bird or anybody on a team w/ Kwame Brown, Smush Parker & Chris Mihm and watch his numbers sink. Fortunately for those guys they never went through rebuilding phase like Kobe did. Nor were they as effective as Kobe with this many years played. Kobe's just on another level talent wise.
My god Kobe stans are annoying. Bird was drafted to a team that was near the bottom of the league with 20 something wins, and he took them to 60 and a title in the 2nd year. When Kobe had a crappy team he went lotto, first round, first round.
The funny thing is that you are on the same level as the Kobe stans. Your hate for him is just as strong as their love for him and it comes off just as annoying.
You do so much more than present stats. You are constantly stating things that are just your opinion about him. You are always making little comments anywhere Kobe or the Lakers come up on this board. Is Kobe having unwarranted arrogance a stat?
I said "stats and evidence". When Kobe makes comments insinuating that his career was held back by playing with the best player in the NBA, that is evidence for unwarranted arrogance and, as a follower of the NBA, I will me it in a forum about the NBA. Kobe stans will also only talk about Kobe. I talk about all sorts of topics, including our discussion about Griffin vs Harden, which had nothing to do with Kobe.
That's not unwarranted arrogance. Kobe is a great player that was playing sidekick for the first 8 years of his career. It's possible that he could have had a better individual career without Shaq as far as points, mvps etc. go. I don't disagree with you being willing to talk about other things. I'm just saying that when it comes to Kobe you are just as annoying when it comes to hating him as Kobe stans are when it comes to loving him.
Well put me on ignore then. I think Kobe is an excellent topic of discussion since the perception is that he's a top 10 or something ludicrous and I only have him top 20 to 30. If that is hating on him, so be it.
I don't even know how to put somebody on ignore on this site and likely never will because it's not that big of a deal. I was just pointing out something to you. And come on man you know you are a hater when it comes to Kobe. It is ok to say that because that is part of what sports are about. I take any chance I can get to hate on LeBron and I won't ever deny it.
What exactly is Kobe doing right now? Struggling to make the playoffs even though he has been playing alongside the best C in basketball all season? Being a complete liability on defense, which is his teams biggest problem (they can't stop anyone)? If Bird was able to go get surgery that was outlawed in the US back in the late 80's then yes, I think he could have been struggling to lead a talented team to the playoffs in his 17th season. Especially if he came into the league at 18 instead of 23. So he had to settle for accomplishing more in 13 seasons (really 12) than Kobe did in 17. Kobe has only played with a bad team for 2.5 seasons, which was kinda his choice by the way. You mention help, as if he didn't play with stacked teams the majority of his career. And Bird still has better numbers, more MVPs and led teams to more titles. IN LESS TIME. LOL at someone trying to sell Kobe playing with scrubs based on 2.5 seasons out of 17. LOL at Bird not being able to create his own offense. LOL at you saying Bird wasn't as effective as Kobe this late in his career but ignoring that Kobe was NEVER as efficient as Bird for most of his career, even when he got to go 1-1 all night playing off of Shaq.
