Has anyone here studied body mechanics extensively? I was wondering if you see anything wrong with the way players have always been taught to shoot a layup? Opposite leg and arm The way I understand it, although this form may be more beneficial in shooting a lay up, it's not mechanically correct for your body. Maybe i just need some clarification, but it's my understanding that the opposite leg and arm move in the same directions when it comes to medial and lateral rotation, and, IIRC, in opposite directions when it comes to flexion/extension. Wouldn't the traditional lay up form flip flop those two?
I think it is more about keeping your body in balance, or maintaining center of mass. Extend right arm, left leg dangles to counter-balance. If you notice, when you walk (or run), your arms and legs move on opposite sides as well... no difference.
If you're laying it up on the right side of the backboard, you should lay it up with your right hand after extending your right arm, and your left arm should be at least either guarding your body, behind you, or down, NEVER UP with the right hand about to lay in the ball. At this time you're jumping off your strong leg and your weaker leg (left) stays closer to the ground. The opposite doesn't happen with the weaker (left) hand. You're still jumping off your strong leg and you have your left leg still closer to the floor, but your left arm stretches and your hand lays the ball against the backboard or on the basket and the right arm is close to you or behind you. - Lessons from John Lucas during my high school basketball practices <- that smiley guy looks like him too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TgFAQooBho
Exactly, that's called the serape effect. Basically the glute and contralateral lat are synchronized and so are the pec/abs and contralateral adductor. These groups basically form an X across the front and back of your body. There is, however, a difference between this synchronized movement in running/walking and what is actually done on a lay up attempt. run/walk: standing leg contracts the glute and is synchronized with the opposite contracting lat. layup : standing leg also contracts the glute, however, the opposite arm is up, which stretches the lat. Here's an example of the "sling", as it's usually called, in action, but here both are synchronized in a stretch: Notice that arm that is up matches up with the leg that's also up, not down, like it does on a lay up. You want both to contract or both to stretch, but not one of each, like on a lay up. I believe having one of each would introduce more rotation into the picture, which is actually not good for balance.
Always use opposite hand and leg. The reason is that you can release the ball higher - that's it. Think about it, your right hand is further away from your left foot than your right foot - that is, you can extend the right hand higher jumping off the left foot.
Huh? So you're saying use opposite leg and arm on the right side, but the same leg and arm on the left? I can't say I hear that very often, usually only when the player is very dominant with his strong sides and can't pull off the switch, but coaches always want you to be ambidextrous. My question still applies though, since that lay up form on the right side doesn't match the body's natural mechanics. I'm not questioning why it's done that way in basketball. I get why it makes sense from a basketball standpoint. That doesn't mean they're looking out for the natural mechanics of the body. Remember these forms were developed decades ago. The interest in mind was growing and improving the sport, not health/movement within the body. We tend to think athletes are usually perfect examples of body movement, and sometimes they are, but in a lot of sports, the movements they train for are actually not healthy. They spend a lot of off-time trying to balance the imbalances they actually trained for to succeed in their sport or position. Havent you wondered why so many great shooters in basketball are not explosive athletes, relative to their peers in the game? (novak, price, miller, nash) Why the more explosive athletes aren't great shooters? (Josh smith, gerald green, shawn kemp, blake griffin, Rose, younger Lebron) The few that are able to balance both tend to be those who are anal about training and preparation (kobe, mj, Ray allen, and now lebron).
Yes. You will NOT, I repeat, you will NOT be consciously thinking about jumping off the wrong foot if you are right handed and have to lay the ball in with your left hand on the left side of the basket. Try it. See how weird that feel bro? Your body will not want to switch.
The human body is an amazing machine. And it naturally tries to orient itself to help us achieve a goal. If you were to ask someone who has never performed a lay-up in their life to take a running jump and try to touch the rim - they would naturally jump off one leg and reach with the opposite arm. Our bodies were designed for this. You don't even need to jump. Try reaching for an object that is out of reach. You will see you put your weight on one leg and reach up with the opposite arm because you can reach higher. As for your examples. I think the reason is that if you are not athletic, you can not get to the NBA unless you have an amazing shot. And if you are athletic, you can get buy with a less than amazing shot so therefore you do. Instead you focus on keeping yourself explosive. But in general having explosive hops helps your shot because it means your arms work less, the ball has less distance to travel, you have less chance of being blocked, and it's easier to aim.
But that's because you haven't trained your body to make the switch. I always went right hand/left leg on both sides of the rim when i was starting out as a kid, with accuracy. Once i started training lefty, i got better though, and it becomes automatic. That's all basketball training though. Again, I was asking if layup form is against natural body movements. Just because a movement is productive within a sport doesn't make it healthy. For example, cyclists spend a ton of time sitting in bad positions with bad posture. Great for their sport, bad for overall hip/back health.
Its about using your body to shield the ball from a defender. Simple as that. If you jump off your right foot on the right side, your **** is gonna get tossed every time.
This is incorrect. What if your body torso is facing the end line? Won't you shield the defender in front/to your left ? Are you talking about lefty shooty and lefty jumpy, or only lefty shooty and righty jumpy? You will always jump off the same leg/foot no matter what side you lay the basket.
Agreed. So much so that it will move incorrectly, if you force it to. I think that's mainly because they have an idea of how basketball players jump. If it was entirely natural, there would be no need to teach kids proper lay up form. If you watch kids, oever even grown ups, who are completely foreign tot he game, they will jump off the wrong foot over and over. It's not a natural movement...however (continued) I do think in this example you learn to adapt. Like you stated, the boy tries to orient itself, but again, it'll do this even it's incorrect mechanically. For example, if you always walk with your head down, your posture will eventually change, so that you can still see forward. If the body doesn't do this, you'll either not be able to see or strain your eyes from looking up, but again, this is an adaptation, not natural and not the best way for the body to function. Reaching for an object, lets say at home, doesn't really require explosion. It also usually isn't repetitive motion. The body can get away with that movement in that situation IMO, without sacrificing performance or re-configuring natural mechanics. but in basketball? That all could be true also, but i just can't shake the idea that many basketball movements seem not natural. The movements are against what the body naturally wants to do, which has to affect mechanics. Looking at players' posture, you have a lot of rounded shoulders (weak backs) and duck feet. The guys who are the exception to this are hard workers in the gym. They put in enough work to counter the negative effects of basketball, from my POV, anyway. I really don't want to get too far from my original example though. I think that's a good place to start. It illustrates my point and how it relates to the game. It's still contradictory, from what I can tell.
Swoly, what are you talking about? You've never seen a player do the Mikan drill? <object width="420" height="315"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/jMegqIaYunI?version=3&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/jMegqIaYunI?version=3&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="420" height="315" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object> Stop trolling Again, not asking why they do it that way, but if that's a good movement from a healthy body mechanics perspective. What i'm trying to get at is, if it's bad for mechanics, could they be contributing to their own on the court injuries?
The reason many ball players have bad posture is because they are so tall. It's just common for tall people to have that issue. Shorter players have much better posture. Is basketball natural? Is a running jump natural? I mean, most of the movements in basketball are not crazy different from real life. You run, you jump, you change directions. All of these things could have been done in the wild as we evolved. It's not like a pitcher in baseball where you get weird injuries. Basketball injuries are more from the landings and contact then from the jumping and cutting with the exception of ACL's. THe reason kids need to learn to do a lay-up is not that they need to learn to jump. It's that they need to learn to jump with a ball and shoot it all at the same time - which is a bit more complex.
That could be true for some, but if you look at big guys like Yao and deke, they had good posture. Taller players in other sports, too. It seems to me that players who only play ball to train have issues with posture. Look at Paul Pierce. I'm not sure you're really getting what I'm saying. That's why i wanted to go back to my original example. Before i learned more about the specifics of body movements It all seemed the same to me, also. Now, i see what science is saying is the best (ideal) way to move and generate force, balance, etc., and I notice basketball goes against this in some ways. Obviously the body can adapt and still perform, there's wiggle room, but for how long? Aren't they fast forwarding the wear and tear, the dysfunction(s)? Yes, they already know how to jump, since naturally the body has a way to jump...and yes, what they need to learn is how to jump with the ball and shoot, but again, how do we know that learned movement is healthy for the body? We just know it's healthy (good) for basketball. Remember, we can teach the body bad movements, too. It's going to go where you take it, the difference is, it's going to give out sooner, if you take it in a direction that's not healthy.
I highly doubt playing basketball gives you bad posture. Bad posture is from sitting poorly (not keeping the gut in and chest out). Yes - if you play basketball - and most sports for that matter, you are going to ruin your body. The game of basketball...the pounding on hardwood...is not something an adult male was designed for. If body mechanics and health are important, one should not play basketball and many other sports. A lay-up is pretty low intensity. I've probably done 10's of thousands of them. I don't think jumping off the opposite foot is unhealthy for the body - where did you get that assessment?
They are playing a sport not trying to be the best at exercising. Seriously though, it's a skill, not a fundamental movement. Most if not all sports feed into asymmetry in some way. Should the rangers force Yu Darvish to lob it up underhand and give up this perfect game since throwing a baseball with that much force overhand is completely unhealthy for his shoulder?
I've seen JR Smith do both...meaning he'll jump off the right for a right handed dunk then the very next play he'll jump off the left for the very same dunk.
