I had originally posted that I would no longer comment on Collier for a few more weeks out of fairness to wait and see if he showed any improvement. However, in light of The Cat's orgasmic and shameless boastiing on other threads regarding Collier's one shining moment, I cannot remain silent. The fact is Collier had an average game against a below average team matched-up against Wallace and Montross, who are marginal NBA players at best. Sure if we can play the Clippers every night or get into a first round playoff series with the Turkish National Team then Collier may have a very bright future in Houston. The fact remains he will not be able to defend 95% of big men in the league. And irrespective of his poor NBA potential, we should not have chosen him with the 15th pick. It can be argued that no players picked after him will pan out any better (I happen disagree - Mason, Stevenson). But nonetheless, we should not have taken him at 15 because absolutely nobody else wanted him. We could have picked him up where we got Langhi in the early 30's. What a waste. ------------------
Cat wasn't really boasting...he was using the reversed situation to back up his point that everyone should withold judgement on Collier until he has had ample playing time and oppurtunities. Cat simply reacted to his one good game the way you guys reacted to a few of his bad ones: over the top. But in this instance, it was to illustrate a point. ------------------ Ugh, Another Rockets off-season....I'm gonna need a keg of Pepto-Bismol.
Cat posted roughly 15 out of 45 total posts in one thread with several taunting Collier bashers to come out and challenge him now. That's boasting. It's also reminiscent of how he used to waste his time getting all worked up on the ESPN msg boards whenever anyone disagreed with him. ------------------
The Cat used to post in the ESPN message board? I didn't know that... Anyway, The Cat was simply illustrating a point. I guess he shouldn't have exaggerated that much...now he is having trouble explaining the true goal he had when typing that post. Collier bashers reacted in a certain way after one game. By the same logic, they should have made him a basketball legend through his performance tonight. Through use of this very logic, The Cat wanted to show how stupid it is to make judgements after a few preseason games. That's all. ------------------ Nederland 2002 Qualifying Campaign (Damn those penalties!!!) Houston Rockets Space Center- Not just another ClutchCity.NET clone. We're that and more!
I agree that Collier still sucks. He just doesn't suck as much and hopefully as the season progresses, he will suck even less than that. ------------------
But he will always suck! ------------------ Miggidy Markell says: 1. Eastcoast is da sh*t 2. Rockets rule 3. Hip/Hop is dope 4. Buy the new Ruff Ryders album! Miggidy Markell is watching Stay STRAPPED & WATCH ya back or be Assimilated.
Ace: Cat posted as C_Barkley4 on the ESPN boards. Anyway, maybe Collier's ahem...suckitude is starting to fade away. GO COLLIER!! ------------------
This thread is teeming with latent homosexuality! ------------------ Time is a great teacher-- only problem is it kills all its pupils. www.FlashAdvantage.com
Every time Collier doesn't play well which will be close to 82 games, I'm gonna call out The Cat... The p***y cat better respond too... ------------------
I have only ONE problem as of right now with collier: he simply is NOT worth a first round pick. And to add insult to injury certainly NOT a pick as high as 15th. Someone has mentioned both Stevenson and Mason. Need I say anything else? ------------------ "I have posted so much that what I say must be true"
Stevenson wouldn't get much playing time here because of Francis but Mason, or Richardson could have easily stepped in and played the 3.
HEY MAN! Don't you realize that Rudy saved 1 million in cap room and picked up a 1st rounder in a MUCH DEEPER DRAFT next year for Collier?? Hell, if Jason can even stick on this roster, then I call that a success. Anyway, NOBODY can judge this draft until we see how the trade plays out, and you won't know that until at least NEXT YEAR. Did you really think the Rockets would win the NBA Championship this year? Of course not- WE ARE REBUILDING, and the Collier draft day move may turn out to make a huge difference for three reasons- 1. Collier may still turn out to be a good bench player. 2. The 1st draft choice we picked up may end up being a solid contributor. 3. The million in cap room may end up being the difference in landing a BIG star (Webber?). Show some patience, DUDE! ------------------ [This message has been edited by Moochie (edited October 25, 2000).]
Your logic eludes me. Of course, the dumping of Pryzbilla completely fits what you said, but i fail to see WHY collier was chosen. We could have gotten a far better player with that 9th pick. didn´t milwaukee chose collier FOR us anyway? they could have chosen any other player we wanted them to. Mason, Stevenson, anyone? I´m not against trading pryzbilla. I´m againt trading him for collier and a pick. Of course the pick may prove to be very valuable next year. There´s no arguing with that. Collier on the other hand, is not THAT bad. He is just not a first rounder. ------------------ "I have posted so much that what I say must be true"
Here are the rest of the 1st round picks: 16. Sacramento Kings PICK: Hidayet Turkoglu, SF, Efes Pilsen (Turkey) 6-8, 202, 13.6 points per game 17. Seattle Supersonics PICK: Desmond Mason SG, Oklahoma State 6-6, 224, 18.1 points and 6.8 rebounds per game 18. Los Angeles Clippers PICK: Quentin Richardson SG, DePaul 6-6, 223, 16.9 points and 10.1 rebounds 19. Charlotte Hornets PICK: Jamaal Magloire C, Kentucky 6-10, 260, 13.1 points, 8.2 rebounds and 1.8 blocked shots per game 20. Philadelphia 76ers PICK: Craig 'Speedy' Claxton, PG, Hofstra 5-11, 180, 22.8 points and 6.0 assists per game 21. Toronto Raptors PICK: Morris Peterson SG, Michigan State 6-6, 218, 16.7 points and 6.3 rebounds per game 22. New York Knicks PICK: Donnell Harvey PF, Florida [TRADED TO MAVERICKS] 6-7, 220, 10.2 points and 7.0 rebounds per game this year 23. Utah Jazz PICK: DeShawn Stevenson SG, Washington Union High, Fresno, CA 6-5, 210, 30.4 points, 9.7 rebounds and 6.2 assists per game 24. Chicago Bulls PICK: Dalibor Bagaric, C, Croatia 7-1 25. Phoenix Suns PICK: Iakovos Tsakalidis C, Greece 7'2, 283, 9.2 points, 59% from the field and 6.9 boards per game 26. Denver Nuggets PICK: Mamadou N'diaye C, Auburn 7-0, 246, 9.1 points, 8.4 rebounds and 1.8 blocked shots per game 27. Indiana Pacers PICK: Primoz Brezec, C, Olimija Ljubljana (Slovenia) 7-1, 243, 4.4 points per game 28. Portland Trailblazers PICK: Erick Barkley PG, St. Johns 6-0, 177, 16.1 points and 4.5 assists per game. 29. Los Angeles Lakers PICK: Mark Madsen PF, Stanford 6-8, 236, 11.7 points and 8.8 rebounds per game OK, which one of these guys would you have picked over Collier and why? ------------------ [This message has been edited by Moe (edited October 25, 2000).]
Pip, KidRock... Let me explain myself. I created that thread and others for two main reasons, each of which I think are very legitimate. First, I and other Collier supporters have been called crazy, insane, nuts, stupid, intrenched in denial, and lots of adjectives similar to those for simply saying he had a chance to succeed in the NBA. Many of these were before he had played a single minute in even the NBA preseason or the RMR. There's a certain thing called the Golden Rule. Think about it. Don't dish out the criticism if you can't take it in return. I certainly think that after the summer long bashing I've heard toward Collier and then the things I've heard myself called that I am entitled to make a thread like I did. Secondly, the most important reason. I don't think Collier for sure has arrived as a force yet. I don't think this means it will make him a big time threat at this point this season, because most likely with Hakeem back he'll see around 3-5 minutes per game. Is Collier getting 11/7 a good sign? Yes of course. But lots of players have gotten those numbers, and I know that's the feeling of a lot of people, including Clutch. After all, it was one game. But you guys were ready to write Collier's career off before you even saw him play once. (although I don't put much stock in the preseason and RMR, you were saying these things even BEFORE then too) I knew when I wrote that post that most of you Collier bashers would consider it unrealistic to say after one game. However, I had hoped that perhaps it would awaken you to what you had been doing, and that you cannot under any circumstances judge or know how a player will perform after a few games. It doesn't work that way. I don't want to start a war with KidRock or anyone else every game about Collier's performance. (and if you make a thread, I most likely will not respond FYI) My hope was that by showing you evidence from this last game you could realize how extremely stupid it is to think you know how a player's career will unfold after a few games. This isn't something I plan on doing after every game Collier does good. I just hoped that maybe I could open a few people's eyes to the real world, and that maybe people could finally withhold their judgment on Collier until you give him some time. (and a few games, etc. is NOT enough... try months) Guess I was wrong. ------------------ President of the Jason Collier police! Looking for next year's Dan Langhi? Draftsource.net ClutchTown.com [This message has been edited by The Cat (edited October 25, 2000).]
I would have picked Mason, Richardson, Stevenson, and maybe even Madsen. Of course, it can be argued that picking Mason, Richardson or Stevenson could have pissed off Cuttino. But it sure is hurting to see them make such nice showings (Mason in particular) while Collier is struggling the way he is. My major problem with Collier: I don´t see much of an upside in him. The whole point of getting a more experienced player should be that he would be able to adapt more quickly to the NBA game. Well, so much for that huh? Now look at Mason, Richardson and Stevenson? Their upside is just GREAT. In Collier, i see a role player at best. In those 3, i see the potential of making an impact in the league. Could they be useful to us with the players we already have? Maybe not. But reason demands that when failing to fit your greatest need, you should draft the best player available. Just imagine what any of those three will be able to fetch in the market in the future. I´m sorry, nothing personal against Collier, but i still see him as a mistake. ------------------ "I have posted so much that what I say must be true"
Thanos, those are reasonable arguments. You, as well as others, have also pointed out the negatives of those picks. As I've said in other posts, I will wait a year or two to form an opinion on how good a pick it was. However, one thing I don't agree with that a lot of people have said is that he has very little upside. All these 6'5", 6'6" athletic guys who have all this upside potential are actually becoming quite common. Chris Carrawell just got cut by the Spurs, and a lot of people feel he has potential. Now, think about the outstanding centers in the league. Two are on their last legs. One may never play again, due to health. Several are fairly one-dimensional. (defense/shot-blocking) Looking at it in that light, I say Collier has a lot of upside. If sometime by the end of his second season he a. plays aggressive, b. makes a decent percentage of his jumpers (18-20' range plus maybe a 3 every now and then) c. rebounds well (he sure did in college) d. sets good picks (seems to be doing that) and e. plays average positional defense, then where would that put him with the current group of starting centers. Top 10? So, is it possible for him to do those things? Certainly, it's possible. I don't know if he will or not, but he definately has the potential. The short swing-men taken after him have potential too, obviously. Seattle sure likes Mason. I guess my point is Collier has potential, also, relative to his position. ------------------
Picking Mason (6'6) Richardson (6'4) or Stevenson (6'4) would've been useless. They would've been as useful to the team as Stais Boseman is - except they would've been earning nearly a million dollars a year instead of the league minimum. We had a NEED for an outside shooting big man - the guy who fit the bill was Jason Collier. But instead of taking him at 9, CD takes an extra first round draft pick in next years draft (the deep one remember?) and takes Collier. If Collier doesn't pan out then at least we still have part 2 of our draft choice to have a stab at another big man. The good news is that Collier has already been able to contribute in the games he's played. He sets a mean screen and he slides to the open spots (opening the lane for the slashers) nicely. Try watching him play and see what he does for the other players without even racking up a statistical number. ------------------
