Oh good Lord. fatfatcow, you are now quoting consecutive posts. I really think this has to stop. Either remove your caffeine IV, or develop more clearly distinguishable multiple personalities. Thank you.
So what ffc? That was over 50 years ago. I don't all of the details about how oppressive cks was, so I certainly won't dispute it. What I will dispute is the salient issue...whether the Taiwanese would be better under an oppressive regime or with the freedoms they presently have. Hmmm...let me think.
Authoritarian Nationalist or Totalitarian Communist, both were regimes that denied personal freedom because that is the only type of goverment that China had ever known. Neither side could afford a real revolutionary representative government in the midst of a Japanese invasion and a civil war. The point is, which has evolved into the more democratic form up to this point? Fatfatcow why does a communal system have to be run by an authoritarian regime? China is still an authoritarian regime because people are not really motivated by altruistic slogans. The true nature of man is that he is motivated by his own self interest and self propigation. Hard work and innovation result from the deisre to promote one's self. But it is through the hard work and innovation of the individual that ultimately the masses prosper. True capitalism would be a cruel b**** but capitalism regulated by the people for the greater good is the best economic system anybody has come up with so far. You know, history keeps on moving along. Wars are won and lost, revolutions succeed and fail and sovereignties are established and split. Taiwan has been seperate and self -ruling for two generations. Let it go, move on, what else but envy could be motivating China to demand to rule Taiwan. If you want to counter my argument you might question why Abraham Lincoln felt it nescessary to declare war on the Confederate State after their succession in order to "secure the union". And, other than the slavery issue which was not the stated purpose at the time I would have no rebuttle. But the time the govenment has been established is certainly a factor in it's legitimacy; but more importantly a government that expresses the will of the governed must be considered legitmate. Chuck
envy??!! how is that when they want to reunite taiwan long long ago when it was a poor island!! i said the fear of a stronger china is the only motivation of the american to keep taiwan apart from mainland! i mean are u american are willing to sacrafice ur life to fight for keeping taiwan aways from mainland? if not please shut da fxxk up!
I have no intention to get into a pissing match with a juvenile and unstable (and obviously brainwashed) Son of Mao, but I just have to throw something out there... fatfatcow - we will fight to protect Taiwan for the same reason that we were prepared to fight the Soviet Union over Western Europe: we will defend democracy and freedom against Communist oppression wherever we can. Taiwan was not always democratic and free, true. The Koumintang has a long history of nationalist oppression - bloody oppression - dating back to 1912. I know a bit about your history (I have studied the Communist Revolution there), and it is safe to say that until their final defeat in 1949, Chaing Kai-shek and his nationalists were doing a pretty good job of raping much of the Chinese populace in order to support the elites (and abolish warlordism, BTW). Mao promised something different. Unfortunately, he picked up right where Chaing left off and ended up murdering more Chinese than Chaing could ever dream of. It is also safe to say that until around 1990 Taiwan was not a true democracy, but a single-party dictatorship that used capitalist economic devices (sounds suspiciously like where the mainland is headed). Yes, they were oppressive - until about a decade ago. Then something happened: they turned into a real democracy. The KMT no longer rules Taiwan; it is a true multiparty democracy now. More than anyone can say for the mainland. Why did we defend Taiwan during the period before it became a true democracy? That is simple: they were not antagonistic towards us. If you want to get in good with us Americans, it really helps to not be hostile towards us. When presented with a decision to support an undemocratic, capitalist society that was not antagonistic towards us, or an undemocratic, communist/socialist society that was hostile towards us - just who in the hell do you expect us to choose? I've got two pieces of bad news for you: 1) Taiwan is (and will be for a while) quite able to beat back any PLA/PLAN attack against it all by itself - without US carriers or Marines. Their army is well trained, disciplined, and well equipped, while yours consists mainly of cannon fodder; their navy, while small, is qualitatively superior - which usually decides the winner in naval combat. You really only outclass them in missile technology, but all you can really accomplish with that is wreaking havoc in their cities. You do not have the amphibious capability to launch a successful invasion of Formosa. You will not have that capability for quite some time. 2) Taiwan is not alone. We would send carriers and Marines in their defense - as we have done every time over the last 53 years that your government has rattled its sword. You have nothing that could defeat a US carrier battle group, let alone the two or three we would probably send. Even the indigenous carriers that you're developing will be no match for a Nimitz and her battle group. And don't forget that a war with us would absolutely shatter your economy. Think North Korea, except with more people to feed... Why don't you guys just stick to the negotiating table, and try to improve your own government first? Unless you're prepared to start throwing nukes around (and getting nuked back) that's the only way that you guys are ever going to bring Taiwan back into the fold. Please, behave. Think peaceful reunification. Think democracy on the mainland. Reality just sucks sometimes.
first american didnt fought for the nationalist for the freedom n democracy of chinese n u already pointed out as the nationalist(kmt) wasnt a democrcy regime! it was the american who were antagonistic toward the communist chinese , or u can say both way! but the large majority of the chinses of the time when american supported nationalist were communist!! u see the american fought for their interest not the chinese's interest! hyprocite for saying fighting for the freedom n democracy of the chinese peoples!
taiwan doesnt have any counter to pla submarine!! the pla navy can blockade the whold island of taiwan until it surrender !if the american dont jump in! the pla can fire misslies or even use nuclear weapoons , but the pla wont use it its becuz they are chinese , they are our brothers n sisters , the same race!! its true that most believe that pla dont have the ability to land a large army at the taiwan island but there is millions of civilian ships to cover up that can send hundreds of thousands of pla troops n special force into the island! u know chinese navy already have 2 new ships from russia that is known as air carrire killer n 4 more is coming soon to deploy! a war with us will our economy as well as yours now since the american becoming heavily relying on chinese cheap labour products ! yes the american can sail their battle ships all they want but when they try to land on chinese soil n fight us , they will die like how they die in vietnam war n korean war! of course most chinese want a peaceful negoiation for reunification but its none of ur damn business . if taiwan claim indepennce we chinese will fight until every last man there is no compromise in this there is only one china in the world n taiwan is part of china n nobody can change that n good luck to u if u n other amercian think that u can change it!!! the pla dont fear the taiwanese force . yes they do fear the american 's troops for now , but once we get strong enough n if the american dare to jump in we will kill enough american to make sure they back off the war like they did in vietnam n korea !!!
u see tree man american liek u never learn the lesson , u alway think america are the most powerful army n can do n force their will n defeat any body in the world , then the 911 event happan do u realize u american are not invincible. even in vietnam u american lost alot of men for nth!when will u leran ur american army cannot conqeror or change everything in the world! u want to know whats sucks in reality ,i a chinese person can treavel anywhere in the world without having to worry or fear being a target of a terrosit groups or being hated by so many around the world!
Here's an interesting question. Does Taiwan need to claim what they already possess? They exercise sovereign control over their economy, their military, and their now-democractically elected government. You can say there is only one China all you want, but right now, an independent, sovereign government exists on Taiwan - and that's not something that seems to be changing any time in the near future. There are two China's right now. The rest of your post was insane rambling, and I'm not going to reply and start arguing those points - even though I think it would be deliciously hilarious to do so.
Going back to the DPRK topic, I predict that the Democratic People's Republic of Korea will collapse very soon, following in the footsteps of the other communist regimes. The signs are there. They are increasingly desperate. They seem to be even panicking. Similar events happened before other communist regimes collapsed. After the collapse, what's left of DPRK will most likely merge with South Korea, under its democracy, unless China and USA complicate matters. South Korea will have take most of the burden, which will cause a huge economic toll on the country.
hey fatfatcow since there are a lot of chinese down in southeast asia does that mean those countries belong to china?
Maybe we had better foresight. The 'country' founded by the nationalists is deomcratic. Then one founded by the communists...isn't. In the end, the nationalists, with all of their warts, seem much better than the alternative.
Originally posted by fatfatcow u see tree man american liek u never learn the lesson , u alway think america are the most powerful army n can do n force their will n defeat any body in the world , ... Changing the subject, eh? u want to know whats sucks in reality ,i a chinese person can treavel anywhere in the world without having to worry or fear being a target of a terrosit groups or being hated by so many around the world! Ahhh...that again. I think it's your comfort zone. I'll generally ignore your comments but periodically, I'm not in the mood to let some pass. Do you know how many Americans tourists there are? How many are being slaughtered by the terrorist groups that you speak of? How many experience the hatred that you talk about? Visit reality sometime, ffc. An interesting sidebar, you rarely find headlines like 'American tourists said to drain money, resources '['/i]...but how about http://vn.vladnews.ru/Arch/2000/iss223/text/upd28-2.html. You also rarely hear about American tourist groups going on vacation, and then 'disappearing' as they try to escape their homeland. (And don't get the idea that our media plays-it-up when Chinese do that... I had not even heard about it until I did a little search on 'Chinese tourists') Yes. You have so much to be proud of.
While it's true that America has had the distinct advantage of creating a nation from scratch on a sparcely populated contenent while Chinese society has the daunting task of transforming a nation of 1 billion people with 3,000 years of fuedal tradition I think the fact that Fatfatcow has learned English and come to a US board for expression says a lot about the status of the nations at this point. We might be an overly materialistic society with culteral disparities but we are the world's beacon right now. It's a lot easier for me to see Fatfat coming over here on a student visa, getting a $50,000 a year tech job, tricking out a Honda and banging on an x-box than it is to see me going over there milling rice for the collective, living in 500 square foot box with my 10 closest relatives. Scoreboard!
A truly excellent post, treeman. A semi-incoherent response, fatfatcow. If you think we would put our army on Chinese soil your even nuttier than you sound. We wouldn't have to. And we don't want a conflict with China. But you should read treeman's post more closely, if you really read it at all, because you really don't understand how we fight these days. If China becomes less belicose and more democratic (with all the socialism your people choose to vote for) then Taiwan might welcome reunification. But what about the Tibetans? They aren't Chinese, they don't want you there, they want to freely exercise their religion, they don't want millions of ethnic Chinese settlers moving into Tibet and destroying their culture and forcing their assimilation by moving into their country wholesale. What about them?
i never say my govrnment has done nth worng i think it has done many wrong like many other government in the world , i think it has a lot of conrrupted ****head official in my government n i think one party non democratic government sux in the long term but i dunt think my government has done more worng to other race n peoples as the american government does! u see alot of people didnt know it was false that supporting the nationalist (taiwan) was fighting for the freedom for the chinese back then , alot of american like tree man blindly supporting their government like how the american government blindly supported the nationalist government out of fear of communism . they thought it was good for the chinese natioanlist to oppress n fight comminism even tho the communist party was far more popular n were the chinese peoples'c choice back then!n there were the double standard that its ok for the nationlist to reunite china with force n not ok with communist! and now people thought chinese who are anti-american about the support of taiwan is becuz they were brainwashed by mao n communist , it is true that some are! but most people look back n studied the history of china n based on facts will know it was wrong for the american to decide which system should be our system! especilly when they were biase , double standard againist communist n ignored the will of majority of the chinese back then! yes the chinese commiunist like all other government are hyprocrrite too but we chinese didnt say anything about the civil war in american about which side should be won or we didnt do anything to interfer the internal business of american when they kill native indians or capture blacks as slave n many other wrong that were done by the american government n make ourself look good ! why should the chinese trust a foreign govenment to have a say in our business when their purposes was the interest of themselves not ours?!!
