give them 2 more season or so, if they are still playing this way, screw the whole team, bashed them as much as u want.... not now.... this team have been playing together for half a season....
So you're saying that 6.0apg and 4.0tpg is the same as 8.4apg and 3.6tpg? Don't you know they have a direct relationship to each other?
PEOPLE..moochie only PLAYED ONE...ONE..ONE...game..stop hating on francis..it's not his fault...it's the nature of basketball..if you wanna be well know..you have to score BIG..look at kobe..he scores 40 points a game but only have 3 assist a game..So back off of stevie
I said it in my previous post, those are BY FAR, Kidd's career high scoring numbers, and they are happening in his 10th season. Kidd has ALWAYS struggled to stay anywhere near .400 from the field, and has never before averaged higher than 16.9ppg. His career average is somewhere around 14, where Francis' scoring average in only his first 3 seasons are above 20ppg. Scoring is not synonymous with SG's. This is not the 60's, the 70's, the 80's, or the early 90's. We have 7'0 3-pt specialists, 6'8 people leading the leadue in shotblocking, we have 2 7'0 ft SF's, we have a 6'9 guy running the point in Portland, we have a 6'1 guy playing SG in Philly, and we have a 6'8 SG in LA making us forget that you need a PG in the first place. Francis at the 1, or at the 2, it doens't matter. We will run the same things, and he will dominate the ball JUST as much. What matters is what the 2nd Guard does and how he compliments Francis' game.
Steve at the 1 or 2 doesn't matter if he's still the PG. But it does matter of he's the SG. Why? Because he would not be the architect of the offense if Moochie took that job. The PG job is to distribute the ball and make his team better. But because Steve has two jobs; scoring and passing. He neglects the later. Thus, the team suffers. I repete. THE TEAM! Not Steve. What makes matter worse is that Mobley is a real SG (not a hybred like Steve), and hogs the ball just as much. So, what we have here are two guards that hog the ball, one at fault (Steve) and one because it's his (Mobley) job as SG. All this kills the team concept. Now the lesser of the two evils would be to move Mobley to the bench. That would allow Steve to distribute the ball to the other teammates, and have enough shots for himself as the PG/SG. At least he wouldn't have to worry about making his home-boy, Mobley, happy with touches. Mobley could get all the touches he watned off the bench.
So we radically changed our offense when Moochie played huh? Nope it was the same offense just a different person running it.
I'm sorry DavidS, but if Moochie took the point guard job and we moved Steve to the two, Moochie would be just as much of an "architect of the offense" as Fisher is for the Lakers. In other words, Moochie can't architect ****. But pretty much everything else in your post is I think exactly what Sane was trying to say. Francis needs a better complement than Mobley. In my opinion, the perfect complement would be someone who plays tough defense, has a consistent outside shot (of the catch-and-shoot variety), and make smart decisions. I think Mobley's defense has become respectable, but he's lacking in shooting consistency and decision making. However, we most certainly don't want someone who dribbles a lot, is a poor shooter, and plays crappy defense (i.e. Moochie Norris). It would also be nice if the guy had some size, so Steve wouldn't be forced to guard opposing 2's, which is a recipe for disaster. In my opinion, I don't think Posey is a very good complement to Steve either, because of his piss-poor shooting and I think he too is questionable in his decision making. Is that who you would start in place of Mobley? Anyways, Rudy barely even brings Mobley out of the game, so it's hard to believe he would ever bench him.
hm..... how come kidd has only 2.5 more assists than Francis then? If he is such a SUPER PURE PG? not to say Kidd is not good (and I think he is the best PG in the league now), but that statement doesn't erally works does it? I agree with what Sane said, we need someone to complement Steve in the backcourt..... Mobley who is also a player who needs the ball to create and score might not be the best choice.... if only he can just do normal catch and shoot....things will be a lot better.... even make it a lot easy for Yao Ming......
I can't believe how much talk is going into this after only one game, and against Memphis at that. Look........' 1. Moochie is not a better player that Steve. (last year's record would tell you that) 2. Cat has been in the worse slump I have ever seen him in. So Steve hasn't had that consistant off-guard to put in shots. 3. It is easier to get assist when the def. is not dictated to you. Every team we play send two guys at Steve when ever he crosses half court. He has to pass the ball to someone, out of a double team, to get the off. going. I know it's fun to trash players on this forum and compare, but if we are going to do it at least be fair.
This is the problem with your argument. ou think this is tru. You think that a PG's job is to blah blah blah...But it's not the case anymore. Derek Fisher of the World Championship Lakers is nothing but a spot-up shooter for them, and they've won 3 titles that way. Do you consider Fisher the "PG" of the Lakers? He doesn't do any of the things you expect from a PG, so why would it apply? Do you think Micheal Jordan ever let the PG dominate the ball? No way, Micheal Jordan did everything a PG was supposed to do, and his compliment was there to make the game easier on him. Derek Fisher and whoever Jordan had alongside him are just there to hit the occasional 3, and try to score some when the defense collapses too much. It doesn't matter what kind of tab you put on Francis. Hell, you can tell him he's playing C, and he'll still be in the backcourt, dominating the ball, scoringt at will, and passing off drives. You cannot bottle him up, because, 1, he refuses to be, and 2, because he's not as effective when playing off the ball. Steve does not neglect the latter. I don't know how where else to get an example, but if you watched Francis in the All Star games, he racked up assists per minute @ Jason Kidd rates. Do you know why? Because he acknowledged that there are better scorers than him on the team. But with us, right now, he is the best scorer. So, if his job, as you say, is to set up the person who can score easiest, then sometimes that means shooting. Stop labelling the players. What's KG? What's Kobe? What's T-Mac? The typical SG doesn't haul in 8 rebounds and dish out 7 assists to go with 30ppg, almost all from driving to the basket. Here's what needs to be grasped: There is no such thing as "typical" in the NBA anymore. No player at any position HAS to handle those responsibilities like in the past. Steve Francis will be the player you see today regardless of position or label. What matters is who plays beside him and around him.
Sane I just cannot see how you can defend that aspect of Steve's game. He talks a good game about moving the ball around but his actions does not show it. We have to question Steve. Here it is he has a bad back and he still goes in for 2 dunks. The last time I checked a John Stockton layup was the same two points. I would like to see Steve use his speed to bring up the ball faster and, also, use the pass to get the ball up which was efficiently demonstrated by Maddox in his 11 minutes the other day. As far as I am concerned with the slow and methodical bringing up of the ball there should not be so many turnovers. I could see if he was forcing the action like Maddox did, you could have a lot of turnovers but he does not force the action. Why force the action? You have to if you have Mobley and Posey on your team. In addition to defense that is probably the biggest role those guys have on this team. So that role is constantly minimized when Steve slows down the ball. In fact Steve himself is part of that group with Posey and Mobley and he himself lose opportunities when he walks the ball up. This of course has nothing to do with Ming and the presence of Ming. In fact if all we wanted to do is get the ball into Ming then we do not need Francis to do that anymore than anybody else. So it really kills me that he turns over the ball so much.
It's not one game. Steve didn't play major minutes and was not productive against PHX and the Rox played better team ball. I challenge you to find one poster in this thread or the Lo Wright quote thread that said Moochie is better than Steve. It doesn't exist. What is mentioned is that the Rox appear to play better as a team...are you getting this concept yet? You and everyone else with the "look at last season" argument find it very convenient to ignore the cold hard differences between last season and the current one...this year there is Yao, Taylor, Rice on occassion, a sophomore Griffin, an improved TMo, a Mobley not hobbled by ankle pain, Cato's play and a semblance of an inside out game vs a total outside-in game (not much "inside" last season). Here's a concept for you. There may not be enough shots for three scorers. Versus PHX, Francis took only 5 shots...suddenly the old Cat reappears. IMO, Cuttino as a streak shooter needs lots of touches to get and stay hot. A lot harder with 2 others to share the ball with as opposed to one other. First, I have missed watching only 2 games this season. Only upon rare occassion is Francis immedialtely doubled after crossing mid-court. It occurs when he drives to the basket. Secondly, think about what you just said - "it is easier to get an assist if the defense is not dictated to you" If Steve Francis is double teamed, that leaves 3 remaining defenders to guard 4 Rockets. If anything, that scenario is easier to get an assist than when the defense slacks off of Moochie. The opposing defense knows neither his long range shot nor has ability to break down the defense off of the dribble is as good as Steve. There is no denying that a good number of Francis "haters" and Yao is the only worthwhile Rocket exist. I can't deny that. But if it's "fair" you want, go back through this and the Lo Wright thread and re-read the posts of Sane, DavidS, and carayip, and even DCkid (apologies to those I missed...if you're objective, you know it). Sorry to sound offensive, but most of their arguments hold more water than yours.
This is just ridiculous... If this thread would have been started about any other player besides Steve or Cat it would have gotten flamed and pushed to the bottom of the page. I mean imagine just for a moment, Yao getting injured and Kelvin Cato coming in for a couple of games and averaging 20pts 10rebs and 6 blocks. Would any of you be questioning whether or not this team runs better with Yao at the center position? Would you demand we move Yao to the powerforward and start Cato at center? Would you even consider starting a thread such as this? I think not. You see the hypocrisy of some of your statements. Where were my fellow posters after Steves perfomances in some of the games below: 12-13-2002 @Grizzlies - 9/ast -3/to - 29/pts 12-20-2002 Hawks - 8/ast - 3/to - 23/pts 12-31-2002 Bucks - 9/ast - 2/to - 26/pts 1-7-2003 Timberwolves - 11/ast - 3/to - 14/pts 1-13-2003 Celtics - 9/ast - 3/to - 26/pts I'll tell you where you were. You were posting things like "...let's wait in see if he can do it consistently" and I was in complete agreement with you. But to come out here after one game (or even two games) and say 'look Moochie did it, so why can't Steve' is idiotic. Why? Because Steve has done it and still scored. If you folks would stop pointing fingers and picking are players apart for a moment, you would see that all of the pieces we have in place now have the potential to work and have worked and brief glimpses. The problem is consistency...period. This team has sometime looked great for one game, one half, and even one quarter, but then appears to loose focus for whatever reason. This will happen less and less with more time to gel and trust one another. Just chill out with all of the damned bashing (under the guise of objectivity) , be patient, and enjoy the learning process.
Sigh. Don't bother replying. Some people I suspect didn't even read the thread content at all before posting or they just simply don't "get it". What can we do?
Sane, the thing is. There still are roles for players even if they are not clearly defined. The point guard is the guy who brings the ball up court, sets up the plays, looks for open guys, runs the fast break most of the time. These are the exact areas Steve Francis is weak in. Yes, he will still dominate the ball, but his weaknesses won't be as glaring if he plays off the ball and has iso's and other plays run for hm.
Well, then two questions. 1.) Who should the Rockets play at point guard, and 2.) how will the Rockets make up for the increased amount of scoring that will be coming out of opposing two guards?
The idea is to get a good defensive point guard, like Eric Snow, who can guard the opposing 2 guard if necessary. Anyways, the Rockets are already dealing with an increased amount of scoring coming out of opposing point guards. Finally, Jason Williams had a bad game against us.
