Duncan would get absolutely destroyed by Hakeem in his prime. Duncan can't stop him offensively, and Dream's defense would make it hard on Duncan to score. Oh, and if Hakeem had Parker and Ginobili his entire career, he wins a similar number of rings in a more competitive era.
Neither of those players, and one not yet mentioned; Full Season Average (and not an aberration, just the best of several very very good stat seasons): PPG: 29.8 RPG: 10.7 APG: 4.8 BPG: 3.3 STG: 1.7 FG%: .507 That PER was a 30.7; followed by two seasons above 29, and another over 30. IF PER is the standard; then this guy is top 5, easily.
PER isn't that important - this is a player not yet mentioned in this thread: Full Season Average (and not an aberration, just the best of several very very good stat seasons): PPG: 29.8 RPG: 10.7 APG: 4.8 BPG: 3.3 STG: 1.7 FG%: .507 That PER was a 30.7; followed by two seasons above 29, and another over 30. IF PER is the standard; then this guy is top 5, easily.
On the point about the 80s being easier than now: Just as there are more international players, there's this thing called the expansion that diluted the talent pool. It was a much more physical league with legit centers. Dwight Howard would be a second rate center in the 80s and 90s. On your point about Magic. Name me one player in league history that could play all 5 positions. Since you seem to be too young to know this, here's some history. When Magic was a 20 year old rookie (a few years older than you), he dropped 42pts/15rbs/7ast to close out the Sixers in the NBA Finals, playing as a center. Let's see Chris Paul play the pivot and see what happens. Only player who could come close to this is Lebron and he can only play 1 through 4.
Michael Jordan Magic Johnson Larry Bird Hakeem Olajuwon Shaquille O'Neal Kobe Bryant LeBron James Tim Duncan Charles Barkley Isiah Thomas Not really in order...
How long was Hakeem's prime? Looking at his stats year by year; Duncan would be very competitive with Hakeem throughout. There were several playoff runs where Hakeem was other-worldly - and the highest PER ever for a playoffs at 39 - but that was in Hakeem's third season, I believe. Duncan has also had playoffs with PER's of over 30. This board seems to remember ONLY the Olajuwon of the '95 playoffs (have nightmares about that myself) - but his career numbers (even during the prime years) don't support that he would "absolutely destroy" Tim Duncan.
Yet he would. And looking at their stats, David Robinson and Patrick Ewing were very competitive with Dream. Yet they were not. Prime Duncan is Mr. Fundamental, but I have serious doubts that he is as good a student of the game as Dream. I'm quite confident that prime Dream would figure out Timmy's comfort zone and make him go against it. Plus, Duncan is not going to shoot over Dream like he does so many others. Dream will beat him down the court every possession. Dream is quicker. Dream is better offensively. Dream is better. Speaking of stats (again)...
I really don't think Duncan would get absolutely destroyed by anybody in his prime. One of the most fundamentally sound big man in NBA history combined with size will get his no matter what. In terms of all time greats, I think Hakeem, Shaq and Duncan are all in the 6-10 range at this moment, very comparable.
Duncan never faced a defender like Hakeem in any of his playoff runs. He also played his career in one of the worst eras for big men in NBA history. Sometimes the stats don't show the full story, especially when players don't play in the same era. Duncan would get 15-20 points by sheer volume of touches, but he'd shoot below 50% to do it. Then, Hakeem's array of post moves and foot work would school Duncan. It's not that I think Duncan sucks, by any means. More that I think Dream is underrated by far too many basketball fans. Hakeem belongs in the discussion for best two way basketball player of all time. Duncan isn't on that level.
I think it would be very much like Hakeem vs David Robinson in 1995. Duncan would get his numbers, but they would be obtained inefficiently. Then, Hakeem would score at will on Duncan.
So, you site stats to say Hakeem would destroy Duncan, while saying stats mean nothing when comparing Hakeem to contemporaries? Over their careers Hakeem and Robinson had many head to head battles; their careers, however, are defined by a single playoff series competing against each other; fair enough. But despite the lopsided performances during that series and those playoffs, their career stats are much closer (with Robinson's actually appearing a little more haughty). Hakeem rightly shares an accomplishment only a few basketball players do: Putting a team squarely on his shoulders, and by force of will, competitiveness and talent carrying that team to a championship. In my basketball viewing life, I've seen it rarely: Magic, Hakeem, Jordan, Duncan ('03) and maybe Wade in '05 are about it. That's half of the top 10, IMO. The other half are going to be champions and other MVP's who I simply remember as being on another level - Shaq LeBron Barkley Bird Malone As a Spur's fan I note that Robinson's PER is higher than most of those guys; but regular season stats don't do it - what separates those guys is picking it up in the post season. These debates are purely academic - obviously; and I'm not taking anything away from Hakeem - just saying, I'd like to see him and Timmy lace them up and face each other in a playoff series, both in their primes. Because, stats be damned, Duncan is showing me THIS SEASON the fire he has. Two bum knees; twilight of his career, and he's turned the clock back about 5 seasons in terms of his productivity on both sides of the ball. That fire is what separates him and Hakeem from the Robinson's and Ewings of the world. '03 Duncan vs. '95 Hakeem - seriously; that'd be good.
Duncan is overall a better player than DRob. Robinson is one level lower than Hakeem, Shaq and Duncan. As was Ewing.
Went through Shaq in his prime twice ('99 and '03)? (Don't want to start a debate now about how much better of a defender Hakeem was than Shaq; but in the post, he was no pushover, or through or anything - he was Shaq, after all)
There was no complete PER in Wilt year, cause steals and blocks were not counting, so Oscar Robertson, Wilt, Elgin Baylor and Jerry West are limited in that particular stat
On rimrocker's stats: Those are all raw numbers, which simply ignore context. Yes, Olajuwon grabbed more boards than Duncan - but Duncan actually has the higher rebounding rate, and a much better defensive rebounding rate, defensive rebounding which requires more pure knowledge and less athleticism than offensive rebounding. Hakeem gets a small advantage in scoring, but Duncan is quite a bit better passer and I think the two are basically the same defensively if you look at their careers ( and as everyone knows, blocks and steals really aren't that useful defensive metrics anyways, as Marcus Camby and Allen Iverson can attest). And I also think Duncan gets a HUGE advantage in temperament, as for better or for worse, Hakeem's ranking is hurt in my viewpoint by what happened in the early 90s. Prime Dream, I think is one of the greatest players ever and easily better than prime Duncan, but Duncan over the stretch of his career is better. That's not a knock on Dream at all, because I really think Duncan is that damn good. He's easily the best player between Jordan and Lebron. Your entire thing here...kind sorta ignores defense. Completely. And even if we're only talking offense, Dominique is not above Nash.
Duncan got higher PER, DRB%, TRB%, AST%, WS/48, he got lower TOV%. Duncan led the league in defensive win shares 5 times and once in offensive win shares, Hakeem led the league in defensive win shares 4 times and never in offensive win shares. Just because Hakeem played in faster pace and got better raw numbers that doesn't make him better. He's got nothing on Duncan.
