I've been pondering this question, and it revolves mainly around Francis. In game 1, Francis played 40 minutes, but got just 4 assists. (6 turnovers) In game 2, Francis played 26 minutes, but did not record a single assist. (3 assists) 4 assists to 9 turnovers, definitely not a good percentage. The Rockets as a team recorded 16 assists both games (and Moochie has 1/4 of those in BOTH games). 16 assists per game last year, would put us 2 assists behind the team that was worst in the league in assists, the Clippers. Francis, Anderson and Mobley combined for 77 minutes vs Charlotte....the only 2 assists between them came from Shandon Anderson. ------------------------- Now you know the numbers. Are the assists misleading? Is the team moving the ball around making 3-4 passes, rather than just 1-2, which would cut into the amount of assists the guards get? Hakeem did manage 4 assists in 20 minutes vs. Charlotte, which is very impressive for a center. So, are Francis' assists, and the team's assists suffering due to increased 1-on-1 play over the summer, rather than team play? Or is it just a strange numbers stat, that doesn't mean anything at all? ------------------ The Serious Police are watching. Follow the rules or be assimilated. Shandon is underrated.
Rudy's offense has always been built around isolation and beating your man or or passing out of the double team. If you think back to the championship years, Kenny Smith averaged less than 5 assists per game. It was a slower and more methodical game, so there were fewer turnovers. Even now with all the motion, the offense is still built on isolations, only it's the guards with the ball, and not the low post scorer. Naturally, if the guards are the guys who are trying to beat their man, they will have fewer assists if they do their job and make it to the basket. If they can't make it to the basket, it's a lot harder to pass on the run out of the double than it was for Dream or Charles to pass out of the low post to the open perimeter guy, and that will cause a few more turnovers. j ------------------
Francis' assist numbers would skyrocket if his teammates hit the open shot more consistently. Also I definitely know what your talking about how the assist numbers are misleading. Francis will drive the lane make a sweet pass to Walt who will pass to Mo for the shot and francis won't get assist.Also some of Francis' turnovers aren't really turnovers just stupid mistakes. I went to the Charlotte game and on the first play we saw Franchise step out of bounds. I hear all this talk about how he was supposed to cut down on his turnovers but I have yet to see it.I think he had 6 the firs game. ------------------
silent j, the offense so far this preseason is not built on isolations. What I'm seeing is nothing remotely close to anything I've ever seen Rudy do before. 3 players strong-side is not isolation. Even the 2 Shakes is getting a pick-n-roll option. He has a new team, and he has a new offensive system.
heypartner: while 3 men strong side may not be true "isolation" - though not by much, considering the rules changes dictate that you must have at least 2 men on that side of the court.... i believe silent j might be right, especially if you switch the words "isolation" and change it to "one-on-one." when someone says "iso" you always assume the one man, on one side of the court old school, pre-1999 play. however, the rule changes have eliminated the very possibility of this happening. what you see now, on the rockets, too, is the guard (be it cut-mob or francis) with the ball @ free throw extended taking his man off the dribble. it is the very essence of QUITE A BIT of rudy's offense. even mo taylor is a part of that equation. it's not iso in the purest, accepted sense, but one-on-one beat your man off the dribble-guard oriented-i'm quicker than you-pick-up-your-drawers-i-just-shook-them-offense. very different from a pick-and-roll or screen-oriented offense, something you have not, and do not see frequently in the rockets offense. rudy is a one-on-one offensive type of coach. no matter how many new sets he throws in there, he still relies on the premise that "you can't stop me one-on-one". he did it with dream...he's doing it with francis. and we all know the results it got for dream. he was good enough to carry us to a championship. hopefully, francis (and mobley) are good enough 1-on-1 players to do the same for houston. ------------------ Essentially the top two players to come out of college the last couple of years are Duncan, Carter, and Francis. - vince
by the way, this is also why you don't see HUGE assist numbers for the rockets. in an offense like that, the guards usually end up passing as a bail-out option. there is very little off the ball motion which is dedicated to getting that man the ball for an easy hoop. and seriously, that would be very difficult to implement. imagine telling your guard to beat his man 1-on-1, but don't go to your left, because shandon's cutting to the basket first off of a blind MoTay screen. it can be done, but it has to be a reactionary thing - as in, the players knowing one another well enough to say, "OK, steve has troy hudson on him. he's probably going to make him **** bricks and drive for a 8 foot pullup. OK, when he starts to break, the center's going to step up, Mo's gonna set a pick, and i'm cutting 45 degree angle to the basket." that's not that difficult a situation but it does take time to get that chemistry. sometimes it takes years. so yea, francis and mobley will often pass as bail-out options, and chances are, if it's not cato (for a dunk) or walt/bull/langhi (for a 3pt bomb), it's probably not going to end up as an assist. shandon's probably going to drive, hakeem's going to throw a move on some1, cuttino's going to drive, "Player x who doesn't have a clear, obvious shot" is going to do something other than go str8 up for the shot. thus the low assist numbers. P.S. part of it is having the occasional hands of stone, but some of it is also not knowing when and where steve is going to pass that ball. give it time, it'll get better. ------------------ Essentially the top two players to come out of college the last couple of years are Duncan, Carter, and Francis. - vince
verse-- Can you please cite the rules change that says you need to have 2 offensive players strong-side. That cannot be true. I do not see the same offense you do obviously. Keep an open eye, watch the weak-side. You'll see the screens. Also, explain to me something...what the hell is a "screen-oriented offense".
The only rule I can think of remotely close to what verse is saying is the "anti-isolation" rule, but that rule says the offensive team can't have 3 or more players above the circle on the weakside, or it's a loss of possession. ------------------ I got nothin'. [This message has been edited by Dr of Dunk (edited October 16, 2000).]
verse, I guess what it boils down to is we are seeing much of the same thing, but I am more pleased by what I see than your more cautious optimism. The other difference in what we are saying is I do not see the Triangle offense as this magical thing the media made up. Fundamentally speaking (in terms of your A-E for example), it is not that much different than what you are seeing the Rocket's doing in preseason now that we finally have a PG/PF combo for the first time in over 10 years. There is a difference between running one-on-one's over and over as an end in themselves, and just threatening them as a means to open up more plays. The Bulls Triangle's primary objective was to threaten Jordan being isolated. That indeed is the design of the Triangle. To build off the talents of the best player. verse, let's discuss this more as the season progresses. Keep an eye out for the subtle differences between setting a one-on-one play and threatening it to open up everything else. We primarily run a 4-Out-1 formation. That often looks like one-on-one sets. But it is still a classic motion offense, as classic and as effective as the Triangle. They both share the basic tenets of any motion.
achebe...note that the top of the key is considered strongside. We often have 4 players outside 3 point land, but have one at the top of the key to prevent being cited for what Dr mentions. So far, I've seen 3 and 4 players outside the circle ON THE STRONG SIDE. I don't know what Rudy has planned for that (I've never seen such a thing), maybe Tuesday will show us more. I do look for strong side stacks like that to produce alley-oops...look for that verse!!
You're right Nolen...back to topic...sorry NIKEstrad for straying somewhat, but if verse was correct about that rule...we would be in for trouble. I didn't see the SA game...but the first two I saw a different defense against Steve. He didn't really know how to respond, almost out of surprise. As I said in another thread, the defense might not be specific to Francis, as teams may simply be working on basic strong-side zone implementations, regardless of Francis. What I've see is other teams allowing Francis to come into the wing at will, then bringing over a weakside forward to zone him. This strategy generally results in Francis passing back out to reset on the other side, or he penetrates, the zone collapses, and he jumps for a pass out. As I said, I don't know what to make of this, yet. The other thing very noticeable is Francis is playing quite a bit of Payton-ball. ie..setting up in the low post for a clear-out looking to pass first, shoot second. Let's just say: It is not as easy as Payton makes it look.
But for Payton it's shoot first, pass second! ------------------ Miggidy Markell says: 1. Eastcoast is da sh*t 2. Rockets rule 3. Hip/Hop is dope 4. Buy the new Ruff Ryders album! Miggidy Markell is watching Stay STRAPPED & WATCH ya back or be Assimilated.
Nike, Looks like Steve will win the Golden Hands award hands down ------------------ www.NOPostCount.com
HP, For me the triangle is just a glorified (and fairly structured) form of MOTION, with maximum player movement off the ball, inparticular isolating a triangle of players or a two man game. Smee ------------------ www.NOPostCount.com [This message has been edited by SmeggySmeg (edited October 16, 2000).]
Dr: What then is the strict definition of an iso? Four players on the weakside? ------------------ "Everyone I know has a big but... come on Simone, let's talk about your but."
heypartner: my mistake on the rules issue. seems i was thinking of something completely different. credit that one to being up on not enough sleep and too much medication. nonetheless, my point is still the same on the rox offensive philosophy. think about it, do you see the rox FREQUENTLY using players "off the ball" to set up the ballhandler for a score? no. it's usually up to that man to create his own shot. this is directly and distinctly different from: 1. indiana, who uses a veritable cornucopia off staggered screens 2. utah whose trigger has been the pick and roll 3. lakers, with the triangle offense i'm not complaining, don't get me wrong, about the very nature of our offense. we're utilizing our strengths. our biggest one, as i believe silent j was saying is our one-on-one play. and while, yes, i do see some movement on the weakside and some picks, i would like to see more of it. i would like to see some backside screens and baseline screens. i mean, which do you think applies best to the rox current offense: A. guards, beat your man and create for others B. set screens for shooters running the baselines C. set screens for ballhandlers (P&R) D. pitch it into the post E. set off the ball screens and cut to the basket all of the above are done by the rockets to some degree, but the primary offensive impetus would be "A". like i said, i'd like to see more of B,C & E, but hey, it's very, very, very early in the PRE-season. i'm encouraged thus far. *************** to answer your question about "screen-oriented offenses"... i was referring to offensive systems which rely moreso on motion and screens than on sheer 1-on-1 ability. i would never have called rudy's old offense "screen oriented." it was built entirely on the philosphy that you couldn't stop hakeem with one man. hell, sometimes you couldn't with THREE. offenses which i refer to include the tex winters' (triangle), jerry sloan's (p&r), etc. gotta go eat, be back in a few to edit any incoherent stuff, hurried stuff... mexican food calling.... ------------------ Essentially the top two players to come out of college the last couple of years are Duncan, Carter, and Francis. - vince
