1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Home Grown

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout' started by rimrocker, Feb 10, 2003.

  1. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 1999
    Messages:
    23,168
    Likes Received:
    10,290
    Maybe this is what moved us to orange...
    _________________________

    Arrests display homebred side of terror threat

    By Mike Carter
    Seattle Times staff reporter

    Nearly a decade has passed since a truck bomb killed 168 people in Oklahoma City, although the passage of time and the horror of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks have dimmed that tragedy in the American psyche.

    But terrorism experts say the arrest of a retired Washington Army National Guard intelligence officer and his ex-wife in Spokane last week on accusations that they illegally possessed secret military documents and sold them to the radical right serves as a stark reminder that the threat of terrorism in the U.S. does not come only from al-Qaida, Iraq or North Korea.

    "While it is true that membership in the militias has dwindled, those who are left are about as radical and extreme as you can imagine," said Leonard Weinberg, a professor of political science at the University of Nevada-Reno and one of the foremost authors of academic studies on terrorism.

    "While we focus on the threat outside our borders, it would be foolish to ignore the continuing threat from within."

    Consider these events from the past month in the Northwest:

    • On Jan. 18, the FBI arrested James D. Brailey, an Olympia man who had recently returned from a meeting of the Christian Identity movement in Arkansas. Brailey was arrested on firearms charges and is accused of plotting to kill Gov. Gary Locke.

    • Ten days later, two Oregon Army National Guard soldiers, just back from peacekeeping duties in Egypt, were arrested and charged with hate crimes for beating a Medford, Ore., hotel owner who they thought was an Arab. The soldiers told investigators they were on a mission to "clean up" Medford.

    • Last Tuesday, the FBI in Spokane arrested 51-year-old Rafael Davila and his ex-wife, Deborah Cummings Davila. Federal prosecutors allege some of the secret materials they possessed were intended to go to white supremacists and anti-government radicals.

    Rafael Davila had served for years as an Army intelligence officer and was a decorated Vietnam special-forces veteran. Before his retirement in 1999, he had served in the 341st Military Intelligence Battalion and was its senior intelligence officer, with a top-secret rating in the Guard's 92nd Troop Command.

    Federal law-enforcement sources have said that, over the years, Davila had drifted to the radical right.

    Davila had told the FBI that he took home boxes of secret documents to study. Up to 15 boxes of security documents — some involving chemical, nuclear and biological-warfare strategies — are missing, federal agents say.

    Deborah Davila, a teacher, is believed to have collected at least $2,000 for mailing more than 300 documents to addresses in North Carolina, Texas and Georgia, according to court documents.

    Deborah Davila told agents she was told by "a mysterious man" in a phone conversation that one thick envelope of secret papers would reach Kirk Lyons, a North Carolina lawyer who has represented such groups as the Ku Klux Klan, the White Patriot Movement and the Posse Comitatus.

    Deborah Davila attended Lyons' wedding, which was performed by the Rev. Richard Butler, founder of the Church of Jesus Christ-Christian and founder of the Aryan Nations. According to federal court documents, Davila lied about knowing Lyon.

    Lyon has denied he received the documents and also denied being an adherent to extremist beliefs. He has not been charged with a crime.

    Rafael and Deborah Davila remain in federal custody to face espionage charges. A federal magistrate on Friday refused to release them on bail because they are a flight risk.

    The FBI has said that the missing documents pose a "huge threat" to the security of the United States and that they would be worth millions of dollars on the black market.

    Not knowing where the documents are now, acknowledged FBI Special Agent in Charge Charlie Mandigo, makes the threat even more disconcerting.

    A shared hatred


    Weighing on investigators' minds is a disturbing — if not bizarre — commingling of the radical right and Islamic extremists, with the hatred of Jews binding them together.

    In the early 1990s, a handful of German neo-Nazis, led by neo-Nazi and former German military officer Michael Kuhnen, volunteered to go to Iraq "to fight against America and Zionism" in the Persian Gulf War.

    Weinberg, the University of Nevada-Reno terrorism expert, pointed out that adherents to the radical right and Islam have speculated that the Sept. 11 attacks were a Zionist conspiracy.

    "There is a similarity in conspiratorial thinking between the Islamists and the far right," he said. "They have a common cause, built around their hatred of the Jews."

    One of the most compelling instances was uncovered in the Northwest during the investigation of James Ujaama, the Seattle Muslim convert indicted for allegedly conspiring to set up an al-Qaida training camp in 1999 on a small ranch near Bly, Ore.

    Ujaama is an associate of London Islamic radical Abu Hamza al-Masri, who last week applauded the crash of the space shuttle Columbia, sayings its crew of Americans, a Hindu and a Jew were the "trinity of evil" and deserved to die.

    The owner of the Bly property was Ivan Rule, a tax protester with hard-right leanings and a belief in Zionist conspiracies. He once pointed a reporter to an Islamic Web site where a century-old anti-Semitic screed alleging a plot by Jews to dominate the world, called "The Protocols of Zion," was posted.

    "The line between international and domestic terrorism is becoming blurred," said retired Gen. Dennis Reimer, the director of the National Memorial Institute for the Prevention of Terrorism, in Oklahoma City. Domestic hate groups have sort of fallen off the radar screen for the public, Reimer said, "but those elements are out there, and they are capable of violence."

    Ultimate goals differ


    Phil Anderson, a senior fellow and director of the Homeland Security Initiative at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, D.C., acknowledges the potential for a nexus between the far-right and radical Islam. There is a significant divergence, however, in their goals.

    The domestic radicals in the patriot and white-supremacist movements seek only to change the U.S. government to fit their beliefs.

    Radical Islam, he said, wants to destroy it absolutely.

    What remains clear, and to some degree is a constant through all of the permutations, is that the military offers fertile ground for extremists nearly 10 years after Timothy McVeigh, a disenchanted and decorated Gulf War veteran who set the fuse on the Ryder truck outside the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building.

    In the late 1990s, one of the key figures in the takeover by radical Muslims of a central Seattle mosque — whose members included Ujaama and others who visited the ranch in Bly, Ore. — was a former Marine who had converted to Islam while stationed in Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War.

    "Nothing has changed," said Anderson, a 23-year Marine Corps veteran who retired as a colonel.

    "The military is still the place where these people get their training and where they continue to espouse all the things about America they believe needs to be changed," he said.
     
  2. RocketBurrito

    RocketBurrito Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2002
    Messages:
    470
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ahh yes, the very people who - according to this board's sage NJRocket - we are no longer concerned about...
     
  3. NJRocket

    NJRocket Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2001
    Messages:
    7,242
    Likes Received:
    27
    Burrito boy...

    Suicide bombers and "home grown" radicals are totally different types of threats. If you don't understand why, I'm not shocked.
     
  4. RocketBurrito

    RocketBurrito Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2002
    Messages:
    470
    Likes Received:
    0
    Two different types of threats huh? So you don't think there are elements of our own "home grown radicals" that would kill themselves if they could bring about another OKC type event?

    You're right, militia guys would never blow up a Dunking Donuts, they leave that to the "Middle Eastern looking guys."
     
  5. NJRocket

    NJRocket Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2001
    Messages:
    7,242
    Likes Received:
    27
    ok...umm..burrito boy, if we have another OKC type event, it wouldnt involve the terrorists blowing themselves up...if you rememebr correctly, the bomb was planted and the terrorists watched on tv...like I said, Im not shocked you dont understand...for God's sake, you cant even figure out how to quote from someone's post, I dont know why I think you can discern between 2 different types of threats
     
  6. RocketBurrito

    RocketBurrito Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2002
    Messages:
    470
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gee, real hard to hit that button, you're right I couldn't figure it out. Try something Jersey-boy, explain to all of us how a generalized suicide bomber is different from a generalized domestic terrorist. While their ideological motivation may differ, their goal, the destruction of our government and way of life, is the same. Don't think for a second that all "middle eastern" terrorists are suicide bombers, and dont be so stupid as to think that there are not domestic terrorists who would give their own life to accomplish their goals.

    Since you apparently think you are an expert on the psyche of terrorists from different locales, why don't you educate us, oh Wise One?
     
  7. NJRocket

    NJRocket Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2001
    Messages:
    7,242
    Likes Received:
    27
    LIke I said Burrito boy...I didnt expect you to understand.

    buh bye
     
  8. A-Train

    A-Train Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2000
    Messages:
    15,997
    Likes Received:
    39
    Am I the only one that opened up this thread expecting to be about how to grow your own weed?
     
  9. NJRocket

    NJRocket Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2001
    Messages:
    7,242
    Likes Received:
    27
    LMAO:D
     
  10. RocketBurrito

    RocketBurrito Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2002
    Messages:
    470
    Likes Received:
    0
    NJ,

    You are just scared that whatever ignorant theory you throw up here will get torn to pieces by everyone on this board. Once again, I throw down the gauntlet - since you think you're an expert at how the minds of terrorists work, explain your theory to us.
     
  11. RocketMan Tex

    RocketMan Tex Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 1999
    Messages:
    18,452
    Likes Received:
    119
    No you weren't. We've been hoodwinked!:D
     
  12. fatfatcow

    fatfatcow Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2002
    Messages:
    277
    Likes Received:
    0
    he means the diferent is a suicede bomber is there n the radicals is not there when the blow up happans so do u understand the differents??? that why hes more concern about the suicde bombers!!!
     
  13. RocketBurrito

    RocketBurrito Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2002
    Messages:
    470
    Likes Received:
    0
    On second thought, I think I prefer NJ's non-existant theory to whatever the hell this paragraph above mine says...

    Look, for the last time, anyone who think that all foreign terrorists are suicidal nutjobs & domestic terrorists are some shifty masterminds who are not as fanatical, & aren't willing to sacrifice themselves, needs to brush up on their history. I seriously hope this was not NJ's secret theory on terrorist mindsets...
     
  14. LeGrouper

    LeGrouper Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2002
    Messages:
    2,423
    Likes Received:
    5
    Seriously rimrocker, Don't be tantalizing us like that.

    What is the Burrito Dude so pissed about? That is kind of funny. Part of me thinks it must NJR just responding to himself with a different username because that argument doesn't even make sense.

    What are you saying Burrito? That Middle Eastern Terrorists are the same thing as domestic ones? What kind of a stupid argument is that? Of course the domestic ones suck too, but they are obviously different and have a different agenda.
     
  15. RocketBurrito

    RocketBurrito Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2002
    Messages:
    470
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm not pissed about anything, I just find it hilarious that all of a sudden some people don't think that domestic terrorists are a threat any longer. Also, while the two groups MOTIVATION is different, their END GOALS are basically the same: the destruction of our government, the disruption of our way of life, the removal of our forces & interests around the world. Different motivation but same end result.
     
  16. LeGrouper

    LeGrouper Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2002
    Messages:
    2,423
    Likes Received:
    5
    Burrito, tell me if this is at all correct...

    What you are telling us, in a round about kind of way, is that you have nothing better to do than sit here and argue with yourself about something that can't even be argued with and that NJR wasn't even arguing with you in the first place? Come on now, are you a domestic terrorist or something? Are you tired of not getting enough respect now that WTC happened?

    "Domestic Terrorists Are Cool Too!"
     
  17. MadMax

    MadMax Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 1999
    Messages:
    76,683
    Likes Received:
    25,924
    While I certainly won't pretend that domestic terrorism is anything less than a threat...let's be honest here. Outside of Tim McVeigh, the scale of domestic terrorism has been pretty small here in the last decade or so. The same can not be said of groups like Al Qaeda and other militant Islamic groups, targetting US interests here and abroad.

    please don't think i'm defending the idiots among us...but i'm much more concerned about the scale of attacks from foreign terrorism than I am domestic terrorism.
     
  18. fatfatcow

    fatfatcow Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2002
    Messages:
    277
    Likes Received:
    0
    i dunno which is biiger threat but i am going to explain what he means ok , when he see a suicde bomber in a donut shop(eg.me looking) he would be more concern n paranoid over a radical(eg.skin-head) becuz the radical are not suicde bombers
     
  19. RocketBurrito

    RocketBurrito Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2002
    Messages:
    470
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes Mr. Grouper, I am Burrito Kaczynski. As for why I'm sitting here posting, well, for the same exact reason you & everyone else on this board does. Hell, why does anyone come to this board and argue? Maybe the board would be a better place if we all just sat in the Rockets thread area & posted neverending "Cat & Taylor for Earl Boykins" threads? Anyway, I saw a statement I disagreed with and I posted a response. His original statement about domestic terrorists (in another thread) can very much be argued with - I'll leave it at that though.

    So, on another note how's your bar venture going so far?
     
    #19 RocketBurrito, Feb 10, 2003
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2003
  20. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 1999
    Messages:
    23,168
    Likes Received:
    10,290
    I vow that from now on, I will consider the mindset of the doobie lobby when starting threads. You all have my sincerest apologies... you may now go back to your Doritos.
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now