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More Stuff from Ashcroft

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout' started by rimrocker, Feb 8, 2003.

  1. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

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    Liberals are sometimes accused of hoping for a terrorist attack so the administration looks bad, but it seems to me the administration is waiting for one so they can spring this.
    _____________

    February 8, 2003

    Special Report
    Justice Dept. Drafts Sweeping Expansion of Anti-Terrorism Act
    Center Publishes Secret Draft of ‘Patriot II’ Legislation

    By Charles Lewis and Adam Mayle


    (WASHINGTON, Feb. 7, 2003) -- The Bush Administration is preparing a bold, comprehensive sequel to the USA Patriot Act passed in the wake of September 11, 2001, which will give the government broad, sweeping new powers to increase domestic intelligence-gathering, surveillance and law enforcement prerogatives, and simultaneously decrease judicial review and public access to information.

    The Center for Public Integrity has obtained a draft, dated January 9, 2003, of this previously undisclosed legislation and is making it available in full text (12 MB). The bill, drafted by the staff of Attorney General John Ashcroft and entitled the Domestic Security Enhancement Act of 2003, has not been officially released by the Department of Justice, although rumors of its development have circulated around the Capitol for the last few months under the name of “the Patriot Act II” in legislative parlance.

    “We haven’t heard anything from the Justice Department on updating the Patriot Act,” House Judiciary Committee spokesman Jeff Lungren told the Center. “They haven’t shared their thoughts on that. Obviously, we'd be interested, but we haven’t heard anything at this point.”

    Senior members of the Senate Judiciary Committee minority staff have inquired about Patriot II for months and have been told as recently as this week that there is no such legislation being planned.

    Mark Corallo, deputy director of Justice’s Office of Public Affairs, told the Center his office was unaware of the draft. “I have heard people talking about revising the Patriot Act, we are looking to work on things the way we would do with any law,” he said. “We may work to make modifications to protect Americans,” he added. When told that the Center had a copy of the draft legislation, he said, “This is all news to me. I have never heard of this.”

    After the Center posted this story, Barbara Comstock, director of public affairs for the Justice Dept., released a statement saying that, "Department staff have not presented any final proposals to either the Attorney General or the White House. It would be premature to speculate on any future decisions, particularly ideas or proposals that are still being discussed at staff levels."

    An Office of Legislative Affairs “control sheet” that was obtained by the PBS program "Now With Bill Moyers" seems to indicate that a copy of the bill was sent to Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert and Vice President Richard Cheney on Jan. 10, 2003. “Attached for your review and comment is a draft legislative proposal entitled the ‘Domestice Security Enhancement Act of 2003,’” the memo, sent from “OLP” or Office of Legal Policy, says.

    Comstock later told the Center that the draft "is an early discussion draft and it has not been sent to either the Vice President or the Speaker of the House."

    Dr. David Cole, Georgetown University Law professor and author of Terrorism and the Constitution, reviewed the draft legislation at the request of the Center, and said that the legislation “raises a lot of serious concerns. It’s troubling that they have gotten this far along and they’ve been telling people there is nothing in the works.” This proposed law, he added, “would radically expand law enforcement and intelligence gathering authorities, reduce or eliminate judicial oversight over surveillance, authorize secret arrests, create a DNA database based on unchecked executive ‘suspicion,’ create new death penalties, and even seek to take American citizenship away from persons who belong to or support disfavored political groups.”

    Some of the key provision of the Domestic Security Enhancement Act of 2003 include:

    Section 201, “Prohibition of Disclosure of Terrorism Investigation Detainee Information”: Safeguarding the dissemination of information related to national security has been a hallmark of Ashcroft’s first two years in office, and the Domestic Security Enhancement Act of 2003 follows in the footsteps of his October 2001 directive to carefully consider such interest when granting Freedom of Information Act requests. While the October memo simply encouraged FOIA officers to take national security, “protecting sensitive business information and, not least, preserving personal privacy” into account while deciding on requests, the proposed legislation would enhance the department’s ability to deny releasing material on suspected terrorists in government custody through FOIA.

    Section 202, “Distribution of ‘Worst Case Scenario’ Information”: This would introduce new FOIA restrictions with regard to the Environmental Protection Agency. As provided for in the Clean Air Act, the EPA requires private companies that use potentially dangerous chemicals must produce a “worst case scenario” report detailing the effect that the release of these controlled substances would have on the surrounding community. Section 202 of this Act would, however, restrict FOIA requests to these reports, which the bill’s drafters refer to as “a roadmap for terrorists.” By reducing public access to “read-only” methods for only those persons “who live and work in the geographical area likely to be affected by a worst-case scenario,” this subtitle would obfuscate an established level of transparency between private industry and the public.

    Section 301-306, “Terrorist Identification Database”: These sections would authorize creation of a DNA database on “suspected terrorists,” expansively defined to include association with suspected terrorist groups, and noncitizens suspected of certain crimes or of having supported any group designated as terrorist.

    Section 312, “Appropriate Remedies with Respect to Law Enforcement Surveillance Activities”: This section would terminate all state law enforcement consent decrees before Sept. 11, 2001, not related to racial profiling or other civil rights violations, that limit such agencies from gathering information about individuals and organizations. The authors of this statute claim that these consent orders, which were passed as a result of police spying abuses, could impede current terrorism investigations. It would also place substantial restrictions on future court injunctions.

    Section 405, “Presumption for Pretrial Detention in Cases Involving Terrorism”: While many people charged with drug offenses punishable by prison terms of 10 years or more are held before their trial without bail, this provision would create a comparable statute for those suspected of terrorist activity. The reasons for presumptively holding suspected terrorists before trial, the Justice Department summary memo states, are clear. “This presumption is warranted because of the unparalleled magnitude of the danger to the United States and its people posed by acts of terrorism, and because terrorism is typically engaged in by groups – many with international connections – that are often in a position to help their members flee or go into hiding.”

    Section 501, “Expatriation of Terrorists”: This provision, the drafters say, would establish that an American citizen could be expatriated “if, with the intent to relinquish his nationality, he becomes a member of, or provides material support to, a group that the United Stated has designated as a ‘terrorist organization’.” But whereas a citizen formerly had to state his intent to relinquish his citizenship, the new law affirms that his intent can be “inferred from conduct.” Thus, engaging in the lawful activities of a group designated as a “terrorist organization” by the Attorney General could be presumptive grounds for expatriation.

    The Domestic Security Enhancement Act is the latest development in an 18-month trend in which the Bush Administration has sought expanded powers and responsibilities for law enforcement bodies to help counter the threat of terrorism.

    The USA Patriot Act, signed into law by President Bush on Oct. 26, 2001, gave law enforcement officials broader authority to conduct electronic surveillance and wiretaps, and gives the president the authority, when the nation is under attack, to confiscate any property within U.S. jurisdiction of anyone believed to be engaging in such attacks. The measure also tightened oversight of financial activities to prevent money laundering and diminish bank secrecy in an effort to disrupt terrorist finances.

    It also changed provisions of Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, which was passed in 1978 during the Cold War. FISA established a different standard of government oversight and judicial review for “foreign intelligence” surveillance than that applied to traditional domestic law enforcement surveillance.

    The USA Patriot Act allowed the Federal Bureau of Investigation to share information gathered in terrorism investigations under the “foreign intelligence” standard with local law enforcement agencies, in essence nullifying the higher standard of oversight that applied to domestic investigations. The USA Patriot Act also amended FISA to permit surveillance under the less rigorous standard whenever “foreign intelligence” was a “significant purpose” rather than the “primary purpose” of an investigation.

    The draft legislation goes further in that direction. “In the [USA Patriot Act] we have to break down the wall of foreign intelligence and law enforcement,” Cole said. “Now they want to break down the wall between international terrorism and domestic terrorism.”

    In an Oct. 9, 2002, hearing of the Senate Judiciary Subcommittee on Technology, Terrorism, and Government Information, Deputy Assistant Attorney General Alice Fisher testified that Justice had been, “looking at potential proposals on following up on the PATRIOT Act for new tools and we have also been working with different agencies within the government and they are still studying that and hopefully we will continue to work with this committee in the future on new tools that we believe are necessary in the war on terrorism.”

    Asked by Sen. Russ Feingold (D-Wis.) whether she could inform the committee of what specific areas Justice was looking at, Fisher replied, “At this point I can’t, I’m sorry. They're studying a lot of different ideas and a lot of different tools that follow up on information sharing and other aspects.”

    Assistant Attorney General for Legal Policy Viet Dinh, who was the principal author of the first Patriot Act, told Legal Times last October that there was “an ongoing process to continue evaluating and re-evaluating authorities we have with respect to counterterrorism,” but declined to say whether a new bill was forthcoming.

    Former FBI Director William Sessions, who urged caution while Congress considered the USA Patriot Act, did not want to enter the fray concerning a possible successor bill.

    "I hate to jump into it, because it's a very delicate thing," Sessions told the Center, without acknowledging whether he knew of any proposed additions or revisions to the additional Patriot bill.

    When the first bill was nearing passage in the Congress in late 2001, however, Sessions told Internet site NewsMax.Com that the balance between civil liberties and sufficient intelligence gathering was a difficult one. “First of all, the Attorney General has to justify fully what he’s asking for,” Sessions, who served presidents Reagan and George H.W. Bush as FBI Director from 1987 until 1993, said at the time. “We need to be sure that we provide an effective means to deal with criminality.” At the same time, he said, “we need to be sure that we are mindful of the Constitution, mindful of privacy considerations, but also meet the technological needs we have” to gather intelligence.

    Cole found it disturbing that there have been no consultations with Congress on the draft legislation. “It raises a lot of serious concerns and is troubling as a generic matter that they have gotten this far along and tell people that there is nothing in the works. What that suggests is that they’re waiting for a propitious time to introduce it, which might well be when a war is begun. At that time there would be less opportunity for discussion and they’ll have a much stronger hand in saying that they need these right away.”
     
    #1 rimrocker, Feb 8, 2003
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2003
  2. BobFinn*

    BobFinn* Member

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    If this ever makes it through congress, we will no longer be "The land of the Free." No way will this ever make it through.
     
  3. Major

    Major Member

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    This proposed law, he added, “would radically expand law enforcement and intelligence gathering authorities, reduce or eliminate judicial oversight over surveillance, authorize secret arrests, create a DNA database based on unchecked executive ‘suspicion,’ create new death penalties, and even seek to take American citizenship away from persons who belong to or support disfavored political groups.”


    Excellent! Police State, here we come! WOOHOO!
     
  4. Cohen

    Cohen Member

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    Don't liberals trust their leaders? There has never been a case of a politician misusing their powers... ;)

    Big Bro, Gattica, both?

    :(
     
  5. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
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    I dunno... there have been several brief periods of extreme tension in US history when unconstitutional things like this have been passed and made into law. Remember, it's still perfectly legal for the DEA to sieze all of your posessions and sell them for profit without compensation to you, even if you are only accused of a drug crime and are eventually found not guilty...

    The pendulum always has swung back to the people, and even if it does get passed, the Supreme Court would eventually come to their sences and overturn it in 20 or 30 years, but I think it's a real possibility that we could have to deal with this crap for 20 or 30 years which I don't want to do.

    We are sort of in the low point of the sine-wave graph of civil liberties in America, and it's taken us 30+ years to get here from the other end of the spectrum (with the high point being he era of Watergate cinicism). It would really piss me off if I have to wait until I'm an old man or dead before the checks and balances of the constitution respond against intertia of the system.

    BTW, if you ever really want to get scared about how technology potentialy can facilitate a move away from constitutional freedoms, do a quick search for Tempest, Van Eck phreaking or the abuse of Eschelon.

    Also feel free to checkout Operation Northwoods, a 1962 Pentagon preposal to carry out terrorist attacks on American citizens, and then blame it on Cuba in order to build support for an invasion.
     
    #5 Ottomaton, Feb 8, 2003
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2003
  6. Cohen

    Cohen Member

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    Do you think technology may change the equation?

    In the past, you only needed to change the laws and lost rights and privacy were immediately retrieved.

    With DNA samples, cameras w/facial recognition software, electronic monitoring, computer databases, data mining tools, etc etc, will privacy lost ever be recovered?
     
  7. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
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    I think congress has always been fairly reasonable about dealing with protections from new technologies once they've had a chance to develop a real understanding of the issues. The bad laws, like the Digital Millennium Copyright Act or the Patriot Act were all passed under great pressure before a general understanding of all of the rammifications could be discussed.

    Over the years Congress has, given enough time, passed laws that gave individuals strong protections against technological abuses of telephone wiretaps, or cell-phone intercepts, recording of telephone conversations without consent, as well as laws protecting individuals from technology-related identity theft issues among other things.

    In addition, the courts have generally been very quick to come to the constitutional aid of consumers. Though some stuff does slip by both the courts and congress (see laws which effectively remove constitutional assurences on limits to the length of copyright protections) in conjunction with public opinion generated through the dissimination of ideas by our free press generally get the job done.

    The one concern I have is that as the media generally consolidates and is gobbled up by mega-corporations, and those consolidated mega-corporations have an aggrigation of capital that enables them to pressure congress they might be able to erode liberties by skewing the discussion of issues that concern them away from the subject of personal freedom and individual rights.
     
  8. BobFinn*

    BobFinn* Member

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    Wow!!! That is amazing this has been a secret for 40 years!!! Makes you wonder what other crazy stuff our Govt. has done (or tried to do). I can't believe they were planning on killing John Glenn the astronaut.

    It would not suprise me if our Govt. had a hand in the JFK assasination in some way.

    Thanks for the links Otto.
     
  9. Major

    Major Member

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    Wow!!! That is amazing this has been a secret for 40 years!!! Makes you wonder what other crazy stuff our Govt. has done (or tried to do). I can't believe they were planning on killing John Glenn the astronaut.



    And people wonder why people (Americans and otherwise) don't just trust whatever the U.S. government says as being absolute truth. For those who have no problem giving Ashcroft basically whatever powers he feels are necessary to fight terrorism saying he would never abuse it, here are some fun snippets from that link:

    <I>
    America's top military brass even contemplated causing U.S. military casualties, writing: "We could blow up a U.S. ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba," and, "casualty lists in U.S. newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation."

    ...

    Should the rocket explode and kill Glenn, they wrote, "the objective is to provide irrevocable proof … that the fault lies with the Communists et all Cuba [sic]."
    </I>
     
  10. Cohen

    Cohen Member

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  11. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

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    Hey Junior, that's within my lifetime!
     
  12. Heretic

    Heretic Member

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    When U.S. citizens are asked by foreign consulates why they are applying for citizenship with a non-U.S. country the only reason they should have to list to be approved should be John Ashcroft.


    This is pure, unadulterated insanity.

    Please, someone who lives in the Washington D.C. area get compromising photos of John Ashcroft with a transvestite or something so we can get that extremist idiot out of any position of power.

    This administration is doing their best to destroy my american dream.
     
  13. glynch

    glynch Member

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    **ck, even I as someone who learned during the Vietnam War that the US government will lie and kill hundreds of thousands of people for political or economic gain am flabbergasted by Operation Northwood.

    It gives miniscule credence to even the nuts who believe that Bush allowed 911 to happen to justify his plans.

    With crap like this and the Iran Contra thing, you can never rule out anything. Unfortuanately all indications are that the type of cookoos who planned Operation Northwood have great influence in the Pentagon now and we are dependent on Rumsfeld, Cheney and Bush II to be the civilian leaders who we might need to restrain the cookoos. How depressing.:(
     
  14. glynch

    glynch Member

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    duplicate
     
    #14 glynch, Feb 11, 2003
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2003
  15. RocketMan Tex

    RocketMan Tex Member

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    It would not surprise me if our Govt. had a hand in 9/11 in some way.
     
  16. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    i just wanna preserve this so you can't change it.

    you must be kidding. unbelievable.

    how many here agree with rocketman on this one? i'm just curious...
     
  17. Major

    Major Member

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    i just wanna preserve this so you can't change it.

    you must be kidding. unbelievable.

    how many here agree with rocketman on this one? i'm just curious...


    While I agree that he's being ridiculous, if an American warship had been blown up and we blamed it on Cuba, would you ever have believed that our government planned and did that?

    It's unthinkable that anyone would ever act on that, but the fact that someone actually planned this and thought it was a good idea is nuts.
     
  18. Buck Turgidson

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  19. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"
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    I for one, do not suspect our government of being involved. I don't think our government could organize anything so carefully. ;) :(
     
  20. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

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    Rocketman doesn't say our Government had a hand in 9/11 and he doesn't say he believes they did. He's saying if evidence later comes out that there were some connections he wouldn't be surprised. This is cynicism based on history, not some nutty conspiracy theory.

    As for me, I very much doubt there is any connection. If there is, I would be emotionally shocked, but like Rocketman, not intellectually surprised.
     

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