[Uh-Oh]Israel and Gaza on the brink of all out WAR

If Palestine were a recognized nation, Hamas's political arm would be its politicians and Hamas's military arm would be its army. This is the real reason that Israel is doing everything possible to slow down the recognition of Palestine on the international stage because it realizes it will have to deal with a nation, not just people that were forced to be refugees.

Israel regularly flouts international agreements that it signs, plays the victim card when it is occupying lands that isn't theirs or was never theirs to begin with. They call everyone that opposes them "terrorists" when it is they that kill innocent women and children, and have little regard international laws on war.

Coveting other people's land and declaring land yours because you believe that you are "God's Chosen People" is a dangerous delusion.

 

Repped. I agree with everything you have posted.

 

7:32 P.M. Defense Minister approves expansion of draft to more than 75,000 army reservists; request was transferred to the approval of the cabinet. In Operation Cast Lead, less than 10,000 were drafted (Haaretz)

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There are so many Islamic countries in the Middle East, the Palestinians have a wealth of options to choose from. Yes, agreements will have to be signed to put them above refugee status, but since all Muslims are children of Allah and seek the same contentment from life, that is not a problem.

Think of the poor Jewish people and their history of persecution, all they want is a little strip of land near Jerusalem. Is that so much to ask? In accordance with the magistrate, the Israeli governance will allow people of all religions to practice their religion near the holy sites as well as tourism.

Blowing ourselves up is not going to do anything but hurt our own religion. The stereotypes our own brothers and sisters face on a daily basis.

It's time to practice some of the selflessness that Allah has taught us, look within ourselves and past these artificial boundaries, and stop the killing and hatred. A simple solution.

 

I agree that Israel has a right to defend itself but you can't take this latest round in isolation. Israel has a choice about building settlements, maintaining economic blockades, restricting the movement of Palestinians, bulldozing Palestinian properties, restricting access to water, and so on. No one should expect to just take rocket attacks but at the same time no one should expect to essentially be a prisoner in their own land.

 

So if someone came to your house and said you should move because they really wanted to live there and they went through some very hard times but it is OK since you have a lot of friends who can put you up and they will let you visit whenever you want you would be fine with that?

 

Exactly. Hamas is stupid for launching rockets. They have nothing to gain and a whole lot to lose by doing so. Israel doesn't need to attack with as much force as they're doing but apparently they're trying to send a message. Problem with that is a whole bunch of innocent lives are lost. Is it justifiable? Has happened way too much in my opinion. The whole situation is has a potential for disaster. Both sides are at fault.

 

adeelsiddiqui supports Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist organization.

Anything new?

 

The moral issues surrounding this conflict is not rocket science, its very clear who is in the wrong- Quite frankly, you either have to be extremely bias to side with Israel, or one does not know the issues. Which is why I don't like to talk about this conflict, because you either get extreme bias that is not even worth debating or intellect that is not familiar with this long drawn out issue. But i haven't debated this conflict in a couple of years now... I'm going to dive in. Lets get some facts straight here...

Fact: ISRAEL TARGETS CIVILIANS

I guess the brutal 2008 offensive on Gaza did not solidify the fact, that the IDF is tasked with punishing the Palestinian population by indiscriminate use of force. Roughly 1000 civilians killed in Gaza and over 5000 injured, compared to 13 Israeli causalities and 500 injured. That's a pretty large gap in proportionality, many of those killed in Gaza were young adults. Not to mention the urban infrastructure in Gaza was torn to shreds by aerial bombings... Does anyone remember when the IDF bombed a UN bomb shelter in Gaza that was holding mostly Palestinian school children and was distinctively marked on the exterior of the compound to prevent friendly fire? The IDF claimed that there were Gazan militants firing within it's vicinity, but other nearby UN shelters who witnessed the bombing testified that there was no small arms fire in that area. There are multiple instances in this 2008 offensive where civilian Gazan bomb shelters were purposefully targeted by the IDF, do your research.

To even deny that the IDF does not targets civilians shows a lack of knowledge on this issue. Targeting Palestinian civilians is nothing new from the IDF or to the state of Israel. I hesitate to say this, but its an ugly truth of this conflict. In response or Hamas targets civilians, which does not help BUTHow are we in a position to tell the oppressed Palestinian people, not to fight back by whatever means possible? In this conflict that we face today, Gazan's are literally using the same logic that Israel uses: "we have a right to defend ourselves" So we have to look at the spark of this conflict.

SPARK of this conflict: Nov. 8th Palestinian child killed by IDF. The funeral which was taking place for that child was also attacked- IDF attacked the funeral in response to an attack that happened on Israel after the child was killed. Ultimately the killing of the child on Nov.8 was the spark which ignited Gazan mortar fire. (Israel also killed at least four more civilians after Nov.8, which has led to further rocket fire from Gaza)

So Israel is targeting civilians, therefore Hamas targets civilians. On top of this, Israel killed a democratically elected Hamas politician. By this logic of self defense, I guess Hamas has the right to target Israeli politicians? BUT HERE IS THE MAIN THING I SEE PEOPLE SAYING: "why does Hamas keep firing rockets, if they know Israel is going to retaliate with greater use of force? if the Palestinians would use peaceful means of protest, then Israel would obviously look like the aggressor." Personally I'm all for peaceful protest. Although peaceful protest is not an option, when you have a media that does not show the conflict. Its hard for Palestinians to peacefully protest for years when Israel has there boot on the neck of the Palestinians. Depriving Gazans with basic living necessities and constantly harassing Palestinians by means of force. Most importantly though: What will peaceful protest gain, when you have a UN that is unwilling to assert their authority over Israel? Israel is free from punishment, and can do as it will over the Palestinians, that is what the 2008 Gazan offensive showed the world. That Israel can do what it wants to the Palestinians and nobody will care. To not respond and just take the punishment of Israel, it too much to as for some and really Palestinians are in a demoralized state of mind right now. They are not ready to protest, they understand they are helpless right now and little will be done to change their situation.

http://rt.com/news/israel-gaza-terrorism-war-820/ Here is Norman Finkelstein's analyses of this recent offensive taking place.

 

you can put it in bold. It still wouldn't be a fact.

 

But he underlined AND italicized it too!!

 

i guess ambulances arent civilians?

 

Jesus!!!, all of you Palestinian sympathizers are really dense.

Loud and clear,

1. What the UN did (carving up Palestine in unfair portions) was WRONG.

2. Israel building settlements was WRONG.

3. What Israel is doing now is WRONG.

4. What Palestine is doing is response is also WRONG.

As an outsider who doesn't have a dog in this fight, I look at odds. Debating morality while the sands of Palestine time waste is useless.

This is Texans vs Jaguars this weekend boys!!! If I'm Palestinian I have to be honest with myself and come up with some trick plays, fakes, etc... The Jags trying to go toe to toe against the Texans is despairingly sad and outcome already known. If you're in Vegas are you betting against Israel? I'm not.

Hamas/PLA/etc.. cannot beat Israel!!!! "If weaker (than the enemy) be able to avoid them", Sun Tzu. Unfortunately, if you believe in a magic sky wizard, then you will be unable to self analyze your forces and capabilities. In this case bigger and better army win, not bigger and better sky wizard (God) win.

Surely the Palestinians have to understand this. To "Survive/WIN", Palestine has to avoid Israel. How,

1. Make peace
2. Keep the land you have now.
3. Don't ask for lost lands back. What is lost in the past is sunk cost and not understanding that will lead to future losses.
4. Apply for statehood
5. Avoid Israel

 

i guess its blasphemy to say that israel targets civilians, but its a lot easier to call the other side "cowards" and say they target civilians. its hard for people to swallow such truths as these, if anyone objects to my comments, i am more than willing to back them up with factual evidence.

here is a documentary of two IDF soldiers talking about the second intifada and the actions taken against palestinian civilians http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37MFa7ZKQWo

 

Palestinians and Israel both target civilians because they both view each other as sub human. There is no high ground in this battle. I cannot wait until our foreign policy changes and Israel no longer gets financial or military support from us. We need to stay out of it.

 

Did you read the post I was responding too?

I largely agree with you and if you will reread my other posts in this thread I say that I don't think either side has the moral high ground and was responding to a very particular post.

 

ATW hates Muslims and is an Islamophobe. Nothing new at all.

 

What I always find tragic about this whole situation is that the last leader on either side that had the moral courage to make the hard choices required for peace was Yitzhak Rabin. He was assassinated by a Jewish extremist for his efforts.