Question about a Rocket's play... hp

yeah, that hand-off works splendidly. And it is such a simple play. For the first time last night, I saw Yao actually fake the hand-off as he felt is man step back to get a better angle to guard the hand-off. That's where it becomes as potent as a PnR. Franics/Mobley can use Yao as a pick for a simple handoff, and Yao's defender has to decide to step out to block the path of the guard (not knowing really if he has the ball or not, since the hand-off is so fast) or to stick with Yao and give up the driving lane.

Moving this out to the elbow area is what Walton did to win the Portland title.

We could be seeing the first step to using Yao more in the high post, as we are seeing a double high post set, quite often now. The primary options of this seem to be different than UCLA though. Primary option #1 seems to be preventing the fronting of Yao. He'll pick for Francis and then push his way to the center of the lane for an entry pass at 5'. Francis's man cannot help out now by fronting, because that leaves Francis open. Yao's man cannot front now, because he'd first have to curl around Yao (since the high post set forces the defender to begin the set behind Yao), and good luck trying to curl around Yao without Yao shielding you for a simple pass and unguarded lane to the rim. Further, help defense from someone other than Francis's man is very difficult as Mo or Griffin is at the other high post so you'd have to leave them when they are so close to Francis for a pass and open shot or lane to the basket.

If Francis cannot make the inital pass to Yao, he as been swinging to the other high post player (our PF) to get a different angle at giving Yao an entry. Again, who can leave to provide help defense, and how can Yao's defender curl around him to front him?

imo, this set is just the beginning. There is a lot of growth potential off of this positioning. We can run the UCLA cut from here, as well, by leaving Yao at the elbow and leaving the rim exposed to backdoors. We can also take some lessons from the Kings and use more picking on the other high post player to get some good looks there.

 

The key as I see it is the speed of the pass with the puntive damage being done IMMEDIATELY.

That is, that the damage is done before the defender reacts. Bang-Bang!

Back to the original question: To have the same effectiveness on the high post Yao would have to either-
1. pass deeper in the slot for the same "instant" punitive damage-very difficult
2. pass to a high ring player(Rice?) for the same "instant"punitive damage -poor consistency so far this year
3. sting them enough times himself (18 footer turnaround at an alarming 58-60%+ rate-not yet Yao) to slow down instant persuit or prevent a recovery collapse to the intended recipient- as I said ,ah ... not yet
4. or use it as a threat enough times as a feint to draw the double (triple?) and pass to a streaking weakside driver-probably the next step if RT wants a high post scheme with Yao

IMHO anyway.



Had to add this -

Walton was slow and reacted only well when his hands were up, he was under the basket(or close) and he presented a threat himself. Eventually the counter to this play was to cover him close and the intended recipient(s) a little closer when Walton posted high . This forced the game onto Walton, and made it more and more difficult ffor himor to find targets or he succumbed to taking a step up or shooting (both of which eventually defeated the purpose of his high post).

Yao will be different if he accepts this role as a four-five times a game scheme. He has much better movement than Walton ever thought of, he has a keener sense of proprioception(where he is and what his body is in realtion to self and others) while in the game, and is learning more and more the subtleties of minute movements as a distraction while in a passing mode. His fakes and body distractions are gfetting very good on passes.

 

oeilpere,

I like your #3 the best. To me, that is the holy grail. It is the pinnacle of Walton, when he could nail that jump hook shot out to the elbow, like Kent Bentson and Dave Corzine did, as well. That just pulls the defense away from the basket and makes it all the more easy to drop passes from above to UCLA-cutting guards and Princeton backdoors.

To expand on your #3, what Walton could do from the high post (before injury), that we don't see Rudy having Yao do (Yao's not really given the ball in the high post much, rather he's a picker as I explained in my 1st post), is use the threat of him passing to cutters as a means to have his man back off him. This will give him added separation at the high post to drop lower in the post or turn and shoot. Sabonis is the only other center I've seen fake passes like that in the NBA.

question: if you agree that your #3 is best goal, would you consider trying to teach Yao and the team to run it *this year* if Yao can't hit the 18-ftr at a Sabonis/Webber clip?

I have to admit, that I expected to see Yao shooting from further away sometimes. Now it seems he would rather pass that up, which is fine. But in the high post, it becomes a viable weapon if it is predicated off of a passing attack (as you say), moreso than Stockton taking the 18'er as a PnR option, imo.

How much do you think the 18-ftr is required to start giving the ball to Yao in the High Post? Seems maybe Yao can sting them for giving him separation to defend the passing threat by just attacking with a dribble move, too, in a Duncan-esque fashion when you step away from him. If you back off Duncan in the high post, he doesn't always seem to shoot the 17'er by default like Webber does, rather he'll just take that ground htat you are giving him.

 

HP:

You hit it right on. I agree with everything you posted - placing Yao at the arc will be a selective strategy at some point this year.

Previously video on him led me to also believe Yao was made for the high post . I think it will be essential to his development and what will keep him alive for his first couple of years as he fills out and before he can trade muscle inside.

A pretty fair friend has told me RT has been side practicing with him more and more working on is his pickup and pivot/pass fake/option then "quick" shooting from the 17-18 foot mark.

Again a la Walton, but a little faster (can I even mention a la Magic at the arc driving people crazy? "... which way will he go, what will he do...? ).

But to me it is a little premature.

RT MAY try to use that to draw Shaq out on Friday. IMHO: It will be even partially successful if Shaq tries to come out on a couple of occasions.

My educated guess is:

1. Horry will face Yao as a defender and take any advantage away of having Yao out there at the high arc when the Rockets are on offense.

2. Placing Yao at the arc will be a selective strategy at some point this year,however, Friday Jackson will not trade Shaq out of the inside chasing Yao to the arc. Jackson will not "honor Yao" with that move.We will see just how egotistical Jackson will be if Yao does get successful outside and Shaq remains in the paint on D.

3. Shaq cannot touch Yao in any type of foot movement, so RT may simply keep Yao moving inside-out, weakside to inside, maybe present a brief presence on the strong side to move Shaq slightly off his "rebound mark" a couple of inches, and allow others to create more inside.

4. On the offense it will be Shaq inside (of course) and Horry will be outside and left swinging or popping around 16 feet or so. RT may have to decide to put Yao on Horry when he swings. I hope he doesn't. I don't know why I like an Rice/Horry defensive match. Don't ask me. But I think that's how RT will read it. Then have Yao snipe at Shaq by filling the passing lanes with everyone else and Yao taking away the height advantage for those High passes. (Note: Shaq's primary inside receipt is a high pass to his right -Yao can take that away from him all night long IMHO). Again I think RT will opt to do these few little things to distrupt Shaq's game. (PS: Shaq can be taunted into NOT following Jackson's instructions too!)

5. Yao will be in foul trouble if he tries to trade inside with the deisel of course ... so - Yao will have to be inventive to stay alive. Bugging Shaq from afar, taking away the "high easy passes" under the ring, shooting lights out when Shaq doesn't challenge him 15-16 feet and out, not getting flustered when he gets banged around by the big truck, remaining in the game, not trading bumps, passing to anyone that is hot ... that's what I would be telling him to do.

6. One more thing - a telephone pssst from my buddy again - RT practiced last week with Cato AND Yao on the floor together against a center he didn't know. Now that would be fun to see against Shaq! Yao at the 4 and Cato banging inside disripting Shaq's concentration.



Nice chatting with you again ... I have been quite sick for three months or so and got out tonight to watch my daughter Elizabeth (High School) get a game high 11 rebounds in a losing effort. She asked me to take her to the Rockets game this weekend ,but I'm not up to it yet I don't think (getting there,though).

Cheers

 

oeilpere and hp,

this is a bit off topic and i don't post here much so bear with me. i consider the two of you to be very educated in the game of basketball based on the posts that you write so i wanted to hear what you guys thought about zone defenses, in particular a 1-3-1.

i am unable to watch many games so i am unaware if the rockets play their 2-3 zone still or if they just play man. but my question is would the rockets be better off by playing a 1-3-1 if they did play a zone.

i picture having francis at the point with posey and mobley on the wings. in the middle have the big fella and working along the baseline would be griffin.

also going off what you said in your previous post oeilpere regarding rudy using cato and ming at the same time. the rockets could use francis at the point with posey and griffin on the wings. in the middle keep the big fella and have cato along the baseline.

i am sure that their are other possibilities with players but i feel that this type of zone would best benefit the defense. i mean you could have the middle all clog up and just in case something got behind you would have either cato/griffin to clean up and protect the basket.

anyway i could be way off base becuase i am not the greatest x's and o's guy so i would appreciate your feedback.

thanks

 

man, thx for the inside scoop. My jaw dropped re: the telephone call mentioning a twin towers. Have you noticed Cato make a couple Yao-esque passes? He's really looking comfortable out there, but they drop off him so much that he can't really achieve the same options in the high post. I can't imagine who that 3rd practice dummy center is.

Did you hear Rudy on 610 Thursday. see the mpeg3 thread authored by edc. He digitizes the shows.

Rudy is calling the double high post set a, "double high PnR." He said they ran that about 20 times against Orlando. He also said that they've tried several times in practice to get Yao a pick across the lane, but the timing was just too precise to make it work (as easy as a pick across the lane sounds). Rudy said that "maybe Cato defends that better than anyone else in the league, but we just can't get it to work." That, together with your comment regarding Rudy practicing new things with Yao kinda sheds light on how Rudy is testing every possible Yao posting play in practice, and bringing only the most efficient ones out to the game.

Regarding the one in current use--the "Double High PnR"--you know, I don't think Jackson has a chance in hell of fronting Yao with that set. We often set that up with 1 out and 4 along the free-throw line extended. Sometimes the wing players are a little closer to the corners, too. The corner defenders have no way to provide help defense or alley-oop city. Francis's man can't either, or Francis will just drive (at least he should rather than shoot the shot...unless he is feeling it...*sigh*). The PF defender of the other high post player (Griff/MoT) is best suited to help, but I've yet to see it, probably because it should be countered fairly easily.

We still might have problems with Shaq in this "double high PnR." What I've seen is Yao doesn't really "Roll" in this; rather, he walks/pushes to the 5-8' mark in the center of the lane and turns around for a pass. It is quite remarkable how wide open he is getting on this play and how no one has solved it, yet, regarding preventing Francis from dumping it into Yao. (Visions of Yao catching, turning, dunking, and enyo-facing Theo still fresh in my mind.) The best the defenses have done is get on the Francis side of Yao (Yao's left side) to make Francis pass to the other high post to make the entry.

anyhow, I'm drifting. What I was meaning to say is that Yao might not be able to do the Pick and "Walk" to the center of the lane. Shaq might not budge. Seems the counter to that will be for Francis to use the pick and drive all the way to the rim.

Nice to hear you are back on your feet. That must be really hard to shake.

btw: I have excellent "Scout" seats this year. 2nd row center, upper deck. (210 row B, seats 1&2) The guy with the two seats in front of me on the 1st row gives me dibs on his seats when he can't go. If you feel up for taking your daughter today, those seats are available, but I'm sure you have better connections.

anyhow, let me list the games just in case you are interested:

Jan. 11th, Saturday, Denver
Jan. 13th, Monday, Boston
Jan. 31st, Friday, Minnesota (great Friday game!!)
April 6th, Sunday Orlando (7:30pm start)

Smeggy, if you are reading this, notice the Orlando game. Are you going to be here for that?

And now I leave you with a picture of the High Post Holy Grail:

<img src="http://www.hoophall.com/halloffamers/img/billwalton1.jpg">

"Here, let me just wrap this pass around your head."

 

rocketball8,

I haven't seen us run a 1-3-1. I also haven't seen us run the 2-3 that much recently, as several people are pointing out.

This is a tiring defense to run, with little chance to do it for too long. It likes to trap the ballhandler, and is strong in the high post area out to the wings. The baseline player must have great endurance and be athletic and fast. Generally it is the PF who plays the baseline, though it could be a fast hustler of any position. The baseline player must defend all the way out to the corners on both sides; although, there are variations of the 1-3-1 that take this extreme responsibility away.

I believe that it's designed for intimidating ballhandlers that can't handle pressure, like in HS and college, not much chance you could run this against Dallas. But I guess we could run it when we are behind to try for turnovers. imo, I don't think it is a candidate for being the main defense of an NBA team. It is notorious for having a awkward, unwanted forced-switch that can be exploited by a simple cross-court pass from corner to opposite wing. It is attacked in the corners and low post, and against NBA teams, I'd expect to see ballhandlers split the traps for rather easy penetration...that is, the defense has inviting creases in front of the ballhandler. If the defense is not quick and doesn't communicate well, the creases might be too big and highly exploitable for penetration.

What I find is NBA zones like to have a direct one-on-one matchup on any ballhandler, rather than trying to trap them. I like the 3-2 and 1-2-2s better, which is closer to the match-up that Chaney runs at Temple. Those defenses always have a man directly on the ballhandler.

 

HP

Thanks for the invite. I'll be hard pressed to go anywhere for a while but I'll be in touch.

HP and RocketBall - Couple of things:

1. I can't for the life of me understand why RT doesn't exploit Yao's apparent wide-open position more when he does his pick/touch/"walk" as you described. It is made to order for poor zone disciplined teams or light centered teams. They get it on, then abandon it at the most inopportune times especially when Yao is succesful to the off center position near the FF line. I chalk it up to RT hoping it will act as a Yao "threat" (feint) that will open up the middle for a side- driver more or widens the passing lanes or something. I don't know.

I do think Shaq may bite to a "foul line post" by Yao though. PnR(walk) to the foul line, back to the basket,Yao gets the ball, Shaq leaves his center spot (for two paces) to challenge and the Rox wings explode to the basket.

2. One of the things that I have seen and sometimes criticized RT for was his penchant for getting into a mindset ... seeing in his own eyes how he wants his players to develop in the team game .... then blindly ignoring some of the positive habits they pick up as they learn. Examples: Griffin discovers/is given the three point line all night but doesn't get a touch out there. Ergo: He doesn't want Griffin at the arc most games. Cato swung inside from the weak side last week's game on five consecutive offensive plays, with two stoppages in the game, yet no play was ever drawn to exploit that. Ergo: Cato will not be an offensive threat.

3. I don't like the 1-3-1. The premise is the front man keys on the ball carrier and either makes the ball carrier negotiate past him, with the middle collapsing in defense, or the front man effectively shades himself to the side he does NOT want the ball carrier to go to. Essentially offering up the middle move or pass off. The main advantage is that the defense can dictate where the ball goes, by a single front man. More particularly it makes the ball carrier pass the ball up, or go through the middle. In today's game all players worth their salt learn to defeat it at lower competitive levels by merely moving their wings past the 3 set D in the middle simutaneouly and the defenders are sunk by either offering room to the ball carrier or being beat deep by the moving wings.

For the Rockets: Rarely used but when it is, Francis is usually the front man and one-on-one does not shine for him sometimes,he either outthinks himself or softens his defensive stance to allow the carrier to get abreast of him and effectively defeat the whole forward stance (the front 1) reason for being there. The myriad schemes for the pros today are predicated on movement and thin (1-3-1) static defensive plays are almost a thing of the past.

4. Eventually even the pyramid and the diamond shaped D sets will only be brief setups anyway. The movement of the ball during attack schemes are such that they can be defeated by a wing pass (or back pass) for the long shot, or a swing to one side or the other offering up weakside penetration. Movement of the entire diamond in unison with adjustments to the threat is the key to keeping the Defensive scheme (either 3-2 or 1-2-2) active and usable. Giving up the trey at the arc will always be an option, but players are getting so profiecent at it that it is hardly a viable concessiona ny more.

5. One thing that we do not do and should be doing IMHO is countering with fundamental defense when the game dictates. I would like to see Rt use more full court presses, open court traps and more quick double team traps at the ball carrier just over the half hashline. I would like to see a three-two weakside shift where the weakside is covered by three and the strong side covered by two. Its a defensive scheme that requires your center (presumably the biggest,tallest) to cover the strong side and challenge the ball carrier directly anytime he is within 14-15 feet. Yet, the three on the weakside prevent defense face to face.

6. The Francis/Posey/Griffin/Yao/Cato may not be farfetched, but remember that when scheminng (diagraming for game and possession by possession strategy) balancing an attack is as important as balancing a defense. Personally I would not be that high on a Francis/Posey/Griffin with Cato and Yao on offense. Cato and Yao would clog the middle, eliminating any overty drives, Griffin I could set up at the arc, but he would not be my instant ball carrier relief choice if Francis picked up his dribble, and Posey although looking real good lately is active but not a stop and pop shooter. It seems unbalanced to me.

Cheers guys and cool runnings to ya'.

 

oeilpere and hp,

thanks for your responses guys. i see know how easy it would be to beat the 1-3-1. i was just thinking that maybe the rockets could do more defensive changes during the game like you said oeilpere. i feel that if the rockets could throw different defensive stances they might "catch" the other team off guard with the possibility of leading to easy chances.

on the line-up with francis/posey/griffin/cato and ming i agree that there would not be much offense. however, the possibility of a high/low post game with ming and cato could be effective against teams for certain strecthes of a game.

anyway, talk to you later guys and continue to have fun with this season.

 

nice thread, should have jumped in earlier

I too after watching Olympics and other footage thought Yao would be perfect for high post, hopefully we see some more as time goes by.

Cato and Yao has me intrigued, offensively it would only work if Yao plays at the high post the whole time Cato is on or if they are screening for each other from low block to low block or maybe Yao is going to step out and show 3 pt range, damn Yao would be tough to keep off the boards if he had a running start after playing from high post or perimeter. Interesting to see if he tries it against Lakers, maybe when Walker is at the 4 instead of Horry or maybe Ming can guard Robert's 3 ball. We really haven't seen Yao shoot the ball from perimter much so far (a foot or 2 instead 3 pt line I mean) interesting to see if he looks for it v Shaq if the big fella stays in the paint, watched Rasho and Marc Jackson get a lot of Js the other week v Shaq.

1-3-1 are a joke and would get eaten alive in the NBA, very tough when we play one we usually have the two middle player (middle and back) basically play man against the post players and weakside wing has to sag in along way. But with the hops in the NBA players have back cuts/alley-oops and dunks would happen very easily. The only reason i would use it is you had too big shot blockers and you get perimter players to funnel to the big... but a big risk.

Oeilpere, not sure our perimeter defenders have good enough fundamentals for us to even consider full crt defense or traps/presses, that would require Steve to have some ability to bend his knees and get in defensive stance something i am yet to ever see.

Oeilpere - hope you are feeling better, you need to be fighting fit to handle the Smeg in April.

HP - the plan is we arrive the morning of the Orlando game, so very keen to go to that one, already have the red and gold jersey and hat packed.

 

Bump! A bet alot of you missed this one! I guess you guys are too busy making trades and finding new coaches!

Thanks HP!

 

Wow... I love this thread. I love to talk about b-ball. I would like to contribute something but I think I need to watch some film before commenting and avoid looking like a fool.

 

Smeg:

Is she really going to go through with it???? Dang I'll guess I'll have to send a get well card to the poor child. (chuckle)

On the traps and presses ... actually I've seen our second string do a credible (but very brief) job of both early on.

Roster-wise Francis and Mobes would be a bust, but Hawkins and Posey would be willing and able. That's two just need a couple more willing bodies and an enthusiastic coach.



Rocketball:

Come back anytime.


Carayip:

I read over what I wrote and frankly I even lost me in there somewhere. Must be the medication or the Drambuie!

Here's a coach's excercise that we give to the players - Watch the game analtically for the whole game ... pick one position and watch that position both ways,both teams all night.

Then when the game is over,figure out which team won at that position, why they did so, and what would you do to beat that position next game.

Now write down your answers using two sentences only, and twenty words or less in each sentence.

Cheers,all