I think this trade would work out great for all three teams: ROCKETS get the perfect SF for their team and some garbage that won’t hurt them capwise: James Posey 4 years, $3,674,000 R-2003 Popeye Jones 3 years, $8,000,000 2001 Bryant Stith 5 years, $22,000,000 2002 while giving up a good player who would not get any minutes with Posey here, two expendable guys, and a pick in a pretty deep draft that in all probability will not be as good as James Posey: Walt Williams $3,750,000 ’99 salary Bryce Drew $1,106,000 ’99 salary Carlos Rogers $2,100,000 ’99 salary Bucks ’00 pick DENVER fills that hole in the middle and gets the third scorer they’ve wanted in addition to a pick in a deep draft and a backup PG superior to all they have now: Eric Dampier $4,988,000 ’99 salary Bob Sura $3,760,000 ’99 salary Bryce Drew $1,106,000 ’99 salary Bucks ’00 pick while giving up a promising young SF who is a little redundant with Abdul-Wahad, a lazy big man they’ve been shopping, and a bunch of garbage they would be ECSTATIC to get rid of for all kinds of money reasons: James Posey 4 years, $3,674,000 R-2003 Keon Clark 4 years, $4,470,000 R-2002 Cory Alexander 6 years, $13,500,000 P-2003 Popeye Jones 3 years, $8,000,000 2001 Bryant Stith 5 years, $22,000,000 2002 GOLDEN STATE gets a talented, athletic big man, two guys oilepere has already said they have interest in, and good outside shooting PG with a bad contract (maybe they would prefer Drew): Keon Clark 4 years, $4,470,000 R-2002 Walt Williams $3,750,000 ’99 salary Carlos Rogers $2,100,000 ’99 salary Cory Alexander 6 years, $13,500,000 P-2003 while giving up a big contract oilepere said they’ve been trying to get rid of and a good player who isn’t a big piece to their future: Eric Dampier $4,988,000 ’99 salary Bob Sura $3,760,000 ’99 salary The salaries are from ’99 and I didn’t know how draft picks were counted money-wise in trades, so I didn’t bother adding them up. They look pretty close - no? I think this trade makes sense for all three teams. What do you (esp. any roaming G/S or Denver fans) think? [This message has been edited by Oatdog (edited September 09, 2000).]
NewGuy: Why does everyone think Posey is so expendable? Probably for the following reasons: 1) His (currently) low-valued contract allows him to fit in just about anywhere contract wise. 2) He's the starter (and theoretically the future), but George McClouds' numbers are better. And McCloud plays more minutes. 3) The Nuggets are likely to be a lottery team next year and if they solve the problem at the 5 this year, then they have a shot at Terence Morris, Shane Battier, or Troy Murphy in the draft next year. Unfortunately, I tally Denver receiving about $2.1m excess $ and GS sending out about $2.2m over incoming $. I don't think this works capwise, but there are CBA experts around who can verify. ------------------ GATER
NewGuy is on the right track. When fans take on the fantasy-GM role to propose trades for their favorite team, they usually make a mental list of players they'd like to keep and others they would like to unload. But they don't usually give the other team(s) credit for doing the same thing. (Actually, there's three lists: players to keep, players who are useful but might go if the opportunity is tempting enough, and players you'd like to unload.) From all I've heard and read, Posey is on Denver's "keep" list, and you'd have to give them a similar "keeper" to get him. (As a legitimate center, Dampier might qualify -- certainly no one on the list of Rockets players would.) For GS, though, this trade is laughable; it gives them little cap relief and even less talent. I won't bore you with the details unless asked. However, I will mention that Sura is not likely to be traded, if only because GS assistant general manager Gary Fitzsimmons drafted him in Cleveland (ahead of Michael Finley) and remains a big fan of his. I don't necessarily agree with Fitzsimmons, but it's a detail that has to be considered. ------------------
I must have fallen asleep. The Nuggets homepage lists Keon Clark as a player, the Clips homepage does not and NBAtalk lists Keon as backup to LaFrentz. Did I miss something? ------------------ GATER
He plays for the Nuggets. [This message has been edited by Det The Threat (edited September 10, 2000).]
wow. Golden State gives up their best outside shooter, and starting center (who's BYC issues makes this trade undoable anyway) for a long term contract with a bad player (Alexander) a half-decent SF, a PF/C who will be less than motivated in GS, and a hustler who's at best a 7th or 8th man. I like Keon Clark (and would love it if we could get him as a backup to Mo/Cato) and while he's on the block, he won't be traded as an afterthought. He's got a load of potential, and if he worked, he could fulfill it. ------------------ The Serious Police are watching. Follow the rules or be assimilated. Shandon is underrated.
NewGuy and Nugzfan,I like Posey, so I’m sure the Nugz like him a lot too and aren’t looking to trade him, but as much as I love Posey on the Rockets, I can’t see how the Nugz’ losing his 8 pts. a game is going to put a dagger in the hearts of the Nuggets’ playoff hopes. They have A LOT more and bigger holes to fill. Look at all the Nuggets would accomplish with this trade. This is a good trade for the Nuggets IMO! 1. get the center they’ve been after. Defense was their biggest problem last year, and it will be again next year. They’ve been trying their a$$es off to get a center all summer and have ended up with a guy who can’t even rebound/defend in the Summer Leagues to show for it. Dampier is exactly the guy they’ve been looking for. Getting another 3 in the draft or elsewhere will not be nearly as hard as getting a legitimate 5. 2. Get a third scorer to team with McDyess and Van Exel. Sura might not be an all star, but he can score. The Nuggets were looking for that when they went after Derek Anderson. Starting both Posey and Wahad puts too much of the load on McDyess and Van Exel. 3. Receive the Bucks ’00 pick. With this pick, they may not get a player as good as Posey, but I would think with the draft as deep as it is, they could find a player to fill Posey’s role on the team. A guy like Battier comes to mind. 4. Money reasons! They lose that long contract of Cory Alexander’s and the other two fat ones of Popeye Jones and Bryant Stith. Aren’t they bringing too many players to camp anyway? I know the Nugz’ owner has not proven himself to be a tightwad in the past, but cutting costs is always a plus. GATER, I don’t know all the ins and outs of cap considerations for trades. The salaries are from ’99. I don’t know if t the ’00 numbers would be closer. When I tallied it up quickly in Excel, I got different numbers. My numbers show: 1. Rockets getting $1.03 million more than they give up, but they’re also giving up the Bucks’ pick, which I did not include in the calculations. Wouldn’t the pick count for something, and isn’t there like a $500,000 grace in trades? 2. Denver giving up $1.5 million more than they get, but they also get a pick. see above 3. Golden State getting $470,000 more than they give up. Obviously, the numbers for this specific scenario do not add up perfectly, but I’m pretty sure a trade involving the same priniciples (Posey, Clark, Dampier, Sura, Walt, pick) is doable with a little finegling. NikeStrad, I'm ignorant of BYC considerations involving Dampier, so you may be right. As far as this trade, assuming it's doable, being a bad trade for G/S, I have to disagree. Basically, they’re trading an injured Dampier with a bigger contract for healthy Clark with more potential and a relatively small contract. They’d also be trading Sura for Walt, which is basically a wash in terms of talent IMO. In fact, Walt with his superior outside shooting and more of a pure 3 game is a better fit for G/S IMO. Furthermore, they’d get more athletic with C-Rog, which St. Jean has been quoted as saying is one of his biggest initiatives with the team. I don’t know about Cory Alexander. Their taking him may have been wishful thinking. Is Cory as horrible as everyone says he is? I thought at the very least, he could bring the ball up the court and be a dependable 3 pt. shooter. Perhaps the deal could be worked out with their getting Drew instead. If G/S was ever even considering giving up their 19 pt. scorer ANTAWN JAMISON and Dampier for a package including these guys as principles, then I see no way they wouldn’t go after this when they're only giving up Sura instead of Jamison with Dampier. As far Denver not wanting to give up Clark in such a trade, Dampier and company are a heck of a lot more compensation than Othella Harrington, and they fit the Nugz’ needs a lot more. ------------------ [This message has been edited by Oatdog (edited September 10, 2000).]
hoopingtall; i cant believe you actually think that. oatdog; posey is worth more than 8 ppg. much more.
Oatdog . . . is this like a zen koan or something, where we're supposed to learn to appreciate contradictory thoughts? For Denver, you say, "Dampier is exactly the guy they’ve been looking for." Meanwhile, you say GS is "trading an injured Dampier with a bigger contract for healthy Clark with more potential and a relatively small contract." So which is it? Or is "the guy Denver's looking for" an injured center with a big contract and limited upside? A suspicious mind would say you're just engaging in whatever doubletalk is necessary to dreamcast having Posey on the Rockets. ------------------
Swopa, you know way more about Dampier than me, so you could probably inform us of the real answer to your question. He has had injury problems and has a big contract, so that probably would play into Golden State's minds in looking to deal him. At the same time, if he looks healthy now, he would be the perfect fit for Denver as Keon's too skinny and lazy to help out Denver. Golden State's in a much longer rebuilding process and has time for Keon to develop. Keon also has more potential IMO to get better. As far as the "dreamcasting to get Posey on the Rockets"............guilty as charged? ------------------
The Warriors would know the state of Dampier's health better than anyone else ... and they also know how first-hand from last year's nightmare how terrible they would continue to be without a center. (And remember, teams have been known to search for years or even decades for a legitimate center.) So the only way they'd give him up is if they were convinced he'd never amount to anything -- and since he's already a good defensive center, it would have to be due to his knee turning into a chronic problem. That doesn't seem to be the case. Dampier reportedly has been scrimmaging full-court with other Warriors players, which is actually more than Jamison has been doing. (Similarly, a non-Warriors fan who saw both players at Pete Newell's camp in Hawaii reported that Jamison had to quit a session early to put ice on his knee, but said no such thing about Dampier.) The original injury was not major, so I don't see him suffering any long-term impairment. ------------------
Well, I don't know. The trade still looks good to me. Keon Clark's a real player. Sure, he has Catoitis right now, but Dampier supposedly hasn't had the best work ethic in the past either. Fortson would have the beef and Keon would have the hops in the G/S frontcourt. Denver's frontcourt has no beef right now, and they don't have a real need for another skinny, athletic gazelle like Clark. Dampier would give Denver that muscle they've been searching everywhere for. You're not saying Dampier is not tradeable? I recall a few weeks back when some fans on this board were saying he could possibly be had for the exception! Maybe wishful thinking at the time, but it should be somewhat indicative as to his security in the bay area. The trade looks particularly good if any of those rumors surounding a possible Dampier-Jamison-Collier-etc. trade had any truth to them. I don't know why this scenario looks so lopsided compared to that other one. I think all three teams make out better than before the trade. No one's really said anything to change my mind yet, but that's just my opinion. [This message has been edited by Oatdog (edited September 10, 2000).]
