I can't tell if you're just being sarcastic, but no, they are not tanking. Tanking implies that they had better options but decided against them in order to be worse (for future purposes let's define it as: valuing higher draft position over winning in the present). The Bobcats just suck something serious. Yet half of this board is still insisting that this is the course we should take.
Agree, pro tankers are really annoying. There's far more chance that Dragic develop into a superstar PG than to get a superstar via the draft, if you only rely on probability. I watch basketball, if a team loses, it's part of the game, but games must be lost because of honest competition, not on purpose.
Where have you been, dude? You think Washington and Charlotte have just begun some rebuilding process? They have been mired in it for longer than we have been without a championship. Why? Because tanking doesn't guarantee jack. Memphis, Indiana, New York, are all playoff teams that did not need to tank in order to turn their teams around. Further to my point, the Spurs are the top team in the West. Who is their best player NOW? Tony Parker. Bottom of the 1st round. You're argument that tanking is the only way is false. Fin
I see that. And like I said part of it has to be showing the kind of loyalty and willingness to get a big FA or make a big trade that would make players want to play for the Rockets. I'm not saying nobody in the front office is doing things right even if we don't tank. I'm also not opposed to building young players and crafting them to be productive players for our team. I'm against not doing things to help us win. Whether or not we can make the playoffs shouldn't change that. Drafting is very uncertain that we'll get a star player that way. The probability is a little more in favor of teams that pick early on in the draft, but even still it's a great unknown and gamble. I just think the team would be the best serve by showing players that the expectations are to win, and doing everything possible to win.
Ummm no. Washington has not been mired in it. I guess you forgot about Gilber Areanas, Caron Butler, and Jamison era. As for the Bobcats no...they have started this process around the same time Yao went down. I guess you have a short term memory. They used to be a competitive team. Memphis, Indiana, and New York won't be winning the championship. Also again...the Knicks and the Lakers don't need to tank because they are two teams where players will flock to regardless. Lol and the Spurs will have gotten nowhere without Tim Duncan and will not go any where unless he comes to play. You're argument that tanking is the only way is false." That was my argument or are you trying to build a strawman? No it's not the only way, the other way is to try and get marginally better and take unwanted players and hope it works out. The Pistons way... which seems less efficient than the other way (The Thunder or Heat Way) which is to collect star players by drafting them or getting one and attracting others. The other way is to just get lucky on some player (say if T-will actually did become a star player or if D-Mo comes over and is the next great international player) Honestly I think most anti-tankers are MLB/NFL guys. Because the Pistons model or this Rockets model would work just fine then. Do whatever you can to get better and better and if you get into the playoffs you have a shot at it. But basketball is so star driven. If you don't have one you really don't have a chance. Even that Piston team had some they just weren't big names. Ben Wallace was a 4x DPOY winner, Rasheed was well...one of the best big men when he wanted to be, and Billups at the time was the most underrated player in the NBA. Dumars got extremely lucky in collecting players who all were undesirables for one reason or another. He has yet been able to re-do that. He has yet been unable to find one other player that a team has passed on wrongly and has broken out with his team. So every year that passes the more it looks like Dumars struck gold with that group.
I agree that their needs to be a glossary of terms. Rebuilding: Trading away older players for young prospects or picks. Play the young players hard but give them all good burn. Trade off the young players that don't fit for more picks (if possible). Draft wisely either by using your picks or trade up if possible. Tanking: Last 20 or so games...Goran and Lowry have plantar fasciitis (it's contagious ). Keeping Flynn and playing him at SF for the point forward experiment...against Durant or Lebron. Now I think all of us would start out as falling under the rebuilding term but I personally have to be honest that if my rebuilding was netting me a #7ish pick near the end of the season and there was still time (didn't have a 20 game lead over the last 3 spots) and there was just 1 Lebron coming out...well if I was coach and given the green light, you might see rotations that would be even worse than McHale's that might fall under the tanking category.
Kind of sad how most people are okay with being mediocre. We have 1 playoff series win in 15 years and people would rather struggle to make playoffs then truly rebuild the team.
Charlotte is rebuilding from their last attempt to tank and rebuild(Emeka Okafor). That one was a rebuild after the tank job which took place in New Orleans before it. I don't see what your point is here. The Areanas & Butler era? Was that the dynasty who's high water mark was set by getting to the playoffs for the first time since the 80s? Yea, those first round exits were impressive. You know, the Rockets were in the same boat around that time. Both teams moved on at the same time. One has been garbage since then, and the other has been competitive. One is all in on a #1 pick that hasn't progressed like they hoped. The other is in one of the best cap situations in the league, a young roster, and multiple first round picks. Memphis and Indiana are relatively young, so we'll see what they do over the next couple years. Memphis has a shot now, and Indiana has plenty to look forward to. My point with the Spurs was that the best player on their current roster is not Tim Duncan, or a lotto pick. Flimsy argument, I'll admit. The Thunder way is two top 5 picks, the first of which happened to be twice the prospect as anyone we've seen since. I don't know many teams in history with that luxury. Certainly wasn't an option for us. I don't even want to start on the Heat way. You say this like it's rare. Someone gets an all-star outside the lottery every year. Often, there are a couple. Williams is an example of how tanking didn't do a thing for New Jersey. Thanks for bringing him up. Should have thrown Jersey in with the Charlotte & Washington arguments.
Kind of sad how many people are ok with losing. You sound like a guy who would be much happier as a Nets fan. They lose all the time. Must be like heaven for people who share your thought process.
I haven't seen too many people arguing against rebuilding the team. I think after losing Yao, rebuilding is the smart way to go. IMO, tanking isn't really helpful. Especially with the lottery system for drafting they have now.
My point is that Charlotte was a competitive team just two years ago. You make it seem like they have been drafting in the top 5 for years and years. This is not true. They haven't had a top 5 pick since...2006 which was Adam Morrison. Up until this year they have been trying to get better and better...remember signing Larry Brown and getting Chandler and Jackson? They were trying to be relevant in Charlotte and thought that making the playoffs would achieve that. It wasn't until Jordan came along and became a official owner that the full rebuild mode was activated. No I never said the Arenas era was a dynasty. But they were trying to be competitive. It's not black and white. But it's funny because once they realized that the Arenas era was over they got rid of all their vets and prepped their entry for John Wall... BTW. You keep saying John Wall hasn't panned out, you do realize it is his second year right? What was Durant doing in his second year? That's right the Thunder sucked just enough to get James Harden. So I'm not sure what you are getting at? The Wizards have sucked for two years now? So what? If they are rewarded with a young core of Wall and MKG/Davis it will likely be worth it because then some other superstar whose fed up with his team for whatever reason (Cousins joining his UK pals) and forming another big trio....so yeah...that two-4 years of sucking is worth it if you make the right picks. Memphis I'll give you has a better shot than most. Indiana I doubt it, if anything will turn out just like the Hawks. They'll consistently make the playoffs and always fall short of truly being anything other than another obstacle. Memphis is closer to the Pistons model than other teams. They have collected some undesirables and made it work out for them. The thing is the Thunder ALSO have a really good GM, like the Rockets do. He knows how to draft and when you add that WITH a real rebuild method then rebuilding doesn't seem so scary. I have complete faith that if Morey had a high pick he'd pick the best guy available as he usually does. No Williams was a 11th overall pick. There is such a drop off from the top 5 , that's why you can't treat rebuilding in the NBA like you can in MLB or NFL because the top 5 players are usually where the elite players come from. The rest are guys that turn out to be better than expected...and those guys are special. Nets did not tank to get T-will.
Rebuilding is somewhat of a euphemism of "tanking". Either way you generally have to get pretty bad to get better. The veteod trade was basically a b*tch slap to our plans of "rebuilding while remaining competetive". From that point on we had no choice but to continue on with this plan as it would have been silly to try and dump our veterans for peanuts at the beginning.
Ya no. I'm sorry that I think tanking is not the way to go. We lost, we're not making the playoffs, and what do these supposed fans do in this time? Boast. I would really like to see a clutchfan actually run the organization just for a year, if only I didn't fear that 99% of the people here would run it into the ground. Tanker, not a tanker, whatever you are, there's a reason why you aren't a GM, Coach or even an owner of an NBA basketball team...
The Nets are in trouble because they gambled on trading for superstars instead of building through their picks. They would probably be in a much better position if they hadn't traded for Deron and Wallace. Also, they have been a much more competitive team over the last ten years than we have been.
I understand that Charlotte was competative two years ago. That was the back end of what started in 2005 with the #2 overall pick, and Morrison 2006 #3 overall pick. After obtaining those two players via draft, they committed themselves to building around these guys. My point with Charlotte is that getting two top 5 talents and building around them produced a team that was no better than the Rockets current roster. The difference between our roster now, and their roster at that time, was that the Bobcats weren't in one of the best cap situations in the league, they didn't have multiple first round picks to mess with, and they didn't have any foreign talent to bring over. They had no options. We do. Since we have options, I'm not ready to spend the next 3-4 years at the bottom of the league getting lotto picks for prospects that may or may not pan out. And I haven't said that John Wall hasn't "panned out." I'm saying he hasn't progressed as quickly as they hoped he would. They drafted him thinking they were getting the next Rose. Durant was further along as a rookie than Wall is now. Derrick Rose was further along as a rookie than Wall is now. I feel pretty safe in saying that Wall is at least a notch below that level of player. Considering the fact that Isaiah Thomas looked like a better player this year, I could argue him being more than a notch below elite.
I'm convinced that the Nets are the worst franchise in the NBA. In the last calendar year they've traded away 2 #3 picks and this year's pick (maybe a 4-5) for a guy who's going to leave next year and a washed up veteran. Can anyone even explain how the Wallace trade makes any sense at all? I can't think of another trade in NBA history that has made no sense like that one.
The Nets have been a more competative team? That's strange. The wins and losses paint a different picture. And if you think trading for Deron Williams was a bigger gamble than wasting 3 years tanking for picks... well. Vegas would love to have you.
