Smeggy, they pretty much tried to man-D Yao the whole game, didn't they? with help fading over from the adjacent guard spot. Did you notice how much SA mixed it up. I agree, Rudy definitely needs to nip that "staring at Yao" thing in the bud. It won't work game in and game out.
I think Yao's passing is more fully utilized in the low post right now, but not because it is necessarily better for everyone. But at the moment when I see Yao on the high post looking to pass, it just seems like the majority of our players don't know where to cut, or are unable to shake their man, and in the end Ming just passes it to a guard at the 3 point line and something else has to be set up. In time, as our players figure the system out more and more, I can see Sacremento type offense with Ming up high and lots of cuts and picks...but until then, I think Ming should be in the low post when he touches the ball.
Yao was doubled when he got the ball on and off and there was the odd single set of defense from the Spurs that was zone, but really it was man all the way with a little doubling, but really they didn't front that much. The big reason Yao wasn't doubled that much in the post was he often caught the ball about 1 metre out (torwards sideline) from the low block (almost what we call short corner but a little higher) and hence doubling from weakside (anywhere) is almost useless, the only player that could double would be from strong side, but that would end in tears (think this is what happened on Mooch back cut lay-up, think Mooches defender turned his head and looked to stick hand in and steal from Yao). if they front I want to see the wing player trying to feed the post kick it to the top and then this player feeds the fronted Yao, simple but effective stuff. the standing around on weakside stuff was amazing, not only do they stand around but the three of them stand within arms length of each other, can't believe the Spurs defenders stayed with them, they could of so easily left 2 defender watching the 3 rockets holding hands and had a floater doubling Ming and helping on 2 man game.
That's a good one, heypartner... <b>PRINCETON'S</b> offense? When was the last time Princeton won a championship in anything except for maybe calculus or something like that. What use is Yao in the high post? You could play Eddie Griffin in the high post and get the same result. Yao will not draw double teams in the high post because he is not a threat to put it on the floor and take his man off the dribble. The whole idea here is not to look pretty or be smart. It is to score points. Yao close to the basket is virtually unstoppable. Yao close to the basket forces the other team to double down or he will simply turn around and bury a jumper or layup in your face. So, it would follow that as soon as the other team is forced to double, you swing the ball out of the post because, voila, SOMEONE ELSE MUST BE OPEN. It's not about where he plays it's about the result. Yao in the high post gives you nothing. He's 7' 5" and needs to be close to the basket. Yes, precisely, <b>"at the rim"</b>. Last time I checked, that means in the post or at least moving into the post. If you look at the Dallas game, Yao never caught the ball at the top of the key and took his man off the dribble. He caught it <b>IN THE POST</b>, on the block, right in front of the rim. Did <b>ANYONE</b> watch the game last night? Did Yao not spend most of the night in the post? Did he not score 27 points and grab 18 boards? I'm just doing a reality check here...
Oh, and I have to respond to this real quick: Divac is not a high post passer by trade. He is a post player. He gets most of his points on garbage buckets and low post moves. Sure, he CAN pass out of the high post, but that's not his bread and butter. And, who the heck wants Yao to be the next Arvydas Sabonis? Anyone, anyone? Jabbar was never a high post center. His bread and butter was also in the post, shooting sky hooks and passing to cutters. Oh, and by the way, Jabbar won the NBA championship his second year in the league, and took the Bucks to the playoffs in his first season... Don't believe me? http://www.nba.com/bucks/history/retired_numbers_jabbar.html OK, that's my real quick response!
I forgot Yao can't shoot from foul line range and I'll go back and count how many times Yao passed out of the low post to someone not in a strong side position, gotta love the three guys on weakside holding hands, they must be a big offensive threat.
Pity the fool, who never watched Sabonis play while he was in his 20s, but i suppose it wasn't in the NBA so that doesn't count.
i think everyone agrees that the best thing about yao is the fact that his basketball sense is sooo great. most american players are all about the points, getting the big money deal, and flashing bling bling. yao's about winning, making the correct decision with the ball (to shoot or to pass), and being the best damn player he can be so he can bring honor to his team and his country. how awesome is this guy!! the thing is that he just needs more touches, not necessarily shots. he just needs to be involved more in the offense, which is happening very rapidly actually (it's like his team is saying, "wow, this dude might be the best player on the team. better get him the ball more.") so the shots will come with the touches. the great thing about him is that he WON'T shoot the ball at every touch. art (laker 4 life but dragged into this rocket thing for yao and gf)
Yao (and more importantly, the TEAM) will be deadly when he mixes it up between the blocks and the high post. Why would you want Yao at the high post? Because he can see and pass over any defender, and he can see and pass to any teammate anywhere on the floor! Not to mention he can just turn and shoot from the free throw line. The Moochie bounce pass give and go last night was just a glimpse of what we will hopefully be seeing in the near future. Against the zone - like Dallas - Yao was effective catching the ball on the move, coming from high to low, enabling him to catch the ball much closer to the basket than with the Dump it In offense. That's what's great about Yao. Particularly once he gets stronger, he will be able to play like Shaq down low, especially if anyone is moronic enough to play him one on one. But he can also play Sabonis / Divac / Walton style. Which is great because this is a TEAM game, something that we haven't seen in Houston since the pre-Barkley days. FWIW, I think Yao will be a CAREER 60%+ shooter from the floor.
Axe, you're joking, right? I'd kill to have Ming be as good as Sabonis in Sabonis' prime. As it stands Ming may become even better.
And when is the last time Kansas State won anything using Tex Winter's Triangle Offense. I agree with JR, who has seen the Princeton offense more up close that any of us here. The inventor of Princeton's offense is Pete Carrill, who has been the Assistant Coach at Sacramento since Webber, Divac and Peja got there. His tenure, in fact, directly coincides with their's. <blockquote><hr> What use is Yao in the high post? You could play Eddie Griffin in the high post and get the same result. Yao will not draw double teams in the high post because he is not a threat to put it on the floor and take his man off the dribble.<hr></blockquote> What use is Bill Walton, Sabonis, Duncan, Webber, Garnett, and Divac in the high post. You know, we are not talking 20-23 feet out. The High Post is in the free throw circle area. We can say even right at the elbow, too, which is about the same distance Yao starts away from the rim on the wing. Yao is one dribble from the rim at 15'. The point is that he CANNOT be doubled there without exposing a major passing lane. On the wing, you can be doubled with only a huge skip pass available to the corner, or a series of swing passes. The high post has the superior ability to generate backdoor layups over any other spot. All Ming has to do is be able to hit shots equal to Karl Malone. I think Ming definitely has Malone's range. The high post center offenses allow the same cuts as Utah's offense, but the playmaker is the center versus the point guard. That's the main difference. I'm not making this up. High Post Center attacks are a major piece of basketball strategies. Major. <blockquote><hr>The whole idea here is not to look pretty or be smart. It is to score points. Yao close to the basket is virtually unstoppable.<hr></blockquote> imo, the whole idea is to get people off of Yao to get him close to the basket on the move...motion systems get people off of him, not to run a plodding system that waits for the double on the wing. Yao is not just going to be allowed to waltz in there any more than Shaq is. And isn't the whole idea of the Lakers offense "to be smart." <blockquote><hr>SOMEONE ELSE MUST BE OPEN.<hr></blockquote> True. But quite often it will be a 3 point shooter who is a 30 foot pass away on the weakside. <blockquote><hr>Yao in the high post gives you nothing. He's 7' 5" and needs to be close to the basket....In the Dallas game He caught it <b>IN THE POST</b>, on the block, right in front of the rim. <hr></blockquote> Gives you "nothing"??? Tell that to Bill Walton and Sabonis. Did you not notice that Yao was starting about 15' away from the basket? Ming at the rim occurs more when we are moving, and running picks n rolls and the motion we saw in Dallas. The Dallas game was not an Dump It To Hakeem game. The point is, what we saw last night was very predictable, yet effective. What we saw in Dallas was a 5-man game where Dallas lost site of Yao for cuts to the basket. We were unable to reproduce that since, and now we are clearing out for Yao. Dallas was the most effective offense for us, and we need to learn to reproduce that. Do you not agree that we need more than clearing out for Yao 10-15 feet on the wing?
He is a high post passer by trade. I think you will find major disagreement with this. Ask his assistant coach Pete Carrill. His bread n butter (as you put it) is running that offense. All motion runs through Webber and Divac. They attack with Divac in the elbow area, not the low block. btw: the whole point is that Sacs offense gets a lot of easy buckets, that you call "garbage buckets." Yao would be incredible at finishing in a motion system, when he gets a shielding position on his opponent for ball movement.
High Post, Low Post, 66%, 55%, 20 shots, 15 shots, 10 shots... who the hell cares. The point is and was... Get Yao the Damned Ball. I think he can be effective in both the low and high post. Teams with weak interior defense can be exploited down low while teams that play better D in the paint can be exploited with more of a high post attack. I think Rudy is too smart to mold Yao into strictly a low post player considering how well he can shoot, see the floor, and pass. Personally I missed the total lack of post play for the past few years and an very glad we now have a player who can make other teams have to react to a threat in the post and open up the floor for our other players.
OK, so the Princeton guy is now an assistant at Sacramento. I stand corrected. I've never heard of their offense as the "Princeton offense", but I guess there's some merit to that comment. As far as Sabonis... I'm not discrediting his great years when he was young. But, I would rather Yao be more like Wilt Chamberlain or Kareem. Both of those guys were versatile, unstoppable players that were unbelievable rebounders and shot blockers. Their game was in the paint. I think taking Yao out of the paint is not a good idea. As for the high-post thing. I never meant that Yao would be completely useless in the high post. Sure, the occasional play running Yao high to find cutters is a good thing. But a steady diet of that is not going to get the Rockets into contention. The biggest mismatch the Rockets now have, night in and night out, is with Yao in the paint. Yao's biggest asset is his ability to put the ball in the basket from close range, to draw defenders toward the basket to create openings for shooters. That's my opinion. And, Divac IS a good high post passer. But that's not the forte of his game. Divac's forte is post ups and passing out of the post How many times have you seen him make an amazing behind the back pass to a cutter or over the shoulder to someone coming thru the lane? A lot more often than him standing out at the top of the key. Anyway, I concur. The main point is that the ball needs to be in Yao's hands more. When the Rockets find a way to do that consistently, good things will happen for them.
Axeman, thank you. I was thinking the same thing. "Good things happen when the big fella touches the ball". The low post/ high post is an intresting debate and I don't think is as clear as black and white.
For all the Francis haters and haters of the current coaching system, much of Yao's high shooting percentage comes from the guards driving in and demanding a double team. They dish to ball to Yao; he flushes it home; Yao has a high shooting percentage! Don't get me wrong, I love Yao, but I also love Francis and the current system. It just needs a little fine tuning. Everything will fall in palce as soon as the Rocks start hitting wide open shots.
I not quite sure if Clutch is still taking requests for sticky threads, but this thread seems to be a recurring theme, and it actually discusses the Hakeem DIT offense versus other ways of getting Yao the DAMNED BALL. Everyone agrees that Yao needs more touches, how you do it is the question. Do we pass it to him and clear out, use motion to get him on the move, use High Post like Sacramento, heavy doses of PnR like Stockton/Malone, mix it up??. btw: why is it a DAMNED ball, rather than a damn ball.
[EDIT] or is the problem really Steve Francis not thinking about Yao first...and not looking for ways to get him off, above all else.
The Chinese guys of the Chinese Basketball league are not 5'9" on average. How did you get this impression? Even the point guards there need to be over 6ft tall. Maybe you are talking about the women basketball league in China, yeah the girls are 5'9" tall. Back to the Rockets, especially with Mobley. He has been hogging the ball for years. What was the result? They ended up playing golf every May and June. It is about time to give Yao at least 15 shots per game. Look at how poorly they play with Mobley in the line up. Sure Mobley rack up lots of points, but they will still be losing the game.
