Am I missing something here, Shaq, Dream, Moses > Tim Duncan

Him and Hakeem were not close. Hakeem is the alltime leading shot blocker and many times led the center position in steals.

 

Kevin Garnett in Minnesota. Not just talking about bad management, but SCANDAL and TRAGEDY. Rockets players getting busted for drugs, T-Wolves getting busted for under-the-table contracts with draft picks TAKEN away, death of Malik Sealy, Hakeem and management fueds.

Imagine if Tim Duncan had David Robinson fall apart on him like Ralph Sampson did. Then Tony Parker and Bruce Bowen are suspended from the league. And in their place is Brian Cook, Luke Ridnour and Ryan Gomes. Thats kinda how the impact was.

Shaq's teams have gotten SWEPT out of the playoffs SIX TIMES.

Also 1st round series format used to be best of FIVE games, not SEVEN how it is now. A first round elimination is NOT good, though who knows how many more wins they could have gotten if more games were allowed to be played.

 

Yes, please lock it. Their done, their brains are about to explode. As the offending poster, asks in a meek voice what about those dominant supersonics, that Sam Perkins and Detlef Schrempf, and required Hakeem to acquire the assistance of Charles Barkley to beat.

And if memory serves me correct, Tim beat Kobe and Shaq twice on route to two titles. But he didn't beat anybody. And while you mentioned that Tim struggled against the pistons, it is funny to me, that you give Hakeem a pass for all the ills of those years I've been harping on. Struggle is not the word I'd conjure for those exits, and the best you can do is that, in the finals, Tim struggled but ultimately won against an (you call it) inferior pistons team? Really??????

 

Marc Gasol and Zach Randolph are better than Hakeem Olajuwon.

 

Point to which series Hakeem seemed to be contained. You should learn the difference between "they are neutralizing me" and "I don't have enough help".

 

You sir are an idiot.

 

I am not trying to down play Hakeem, really I am not. The guy gave me my only major championship of my adult life.

Also, Hakeem's influence certainly goes far beyond his professional accomplishments. That is why, year after year, young players want to work out with Hakeem. Hakeem is an utterly original player, the likes of which we have never seen. He created his own style of basketball, like Picasso did with painting.

As far as that goes, Tim can't lay a candle to Hakeem.

But Hakeem could have been much more if he were driven to be. But I think that maybe his culture, the way he was raised, he never wanted to show anybody up. That is until he felt disrespected, and Robinson paid the price.

There is no denying how great Hakeem was and is.

 

He showed up Kupchak and Michael Cage by beating their ass up. Coldcocked Billy Paultz too. Hakeem was a hot head in his early days, and loved the big limelight games against other marquee players. I can't believe you're trying to pass off your version of Hakeem's career, I don't think you even watched a majority of Hakeem's career, seems like you just picked up watching him and the Rockets right around the championship years but try to act like you watched him throughout his career.

 

He also demanded to play center. And if you'd like me to go down that road, I can.

Nobody ever said that Hakeem didn't have an ego. Also, you do realize that beating the crap out of somebody is different than dropping an extra 10 points on them when the game is in hand. That one does not assume the other, right?

 

You do realize that one of Hakeem and Duncan has an increase in playoff production, don't you? I'll let you figure out which one that is.

Just stop dude. You keep digging a deeper ditch. Your argument would have some merit if Hakeem were one of the players who couldn't seem to elevate his game until later in his career, when he finally "got it". But he was doing this by season two. The disparity in talent from seasons 3 until circa 92 are quite evident to anyone that watched his career. I highly doubt that you have from your comments in this thread.

 

Demanded to play center? That's because he was LMAO! Ralph Sampson was the one who wanted to play PF as he was more of a finesse player and liked hanging around the perimeter.

You acknowledge that Hakeem had an ego yet posted earlier that it he never wanted to show anybody up, those contradict each other.

And what is your proof that Hakeem didn't want to drop that extra 10 points? The stats? Well the stats doesn't show that Hakeem was triple teamed and either forced the ball out of his hands into his lesser teammates or into very tough low percentage shots. He perfected the baseline fadeaway in part because he wanted to fadeaway from the double and triple team.

Again, you color me as a bandwagon tshirt fan that saw Hakeem only when he won the titles and after, you just use stats to fill in the empty gaps that you've never seen.

 

If Dream is the Dreamiest, fine with me, just don't misread TD's contributions

Not really wanting to take a side in this (or any) argument of whose jock smells better but as a Wake Forest lifer, ... Tim Duncan has been lauded from his Junior year on and he's deserved it. But he's always deserved a lot more than he gets. I have never understood how students of the game can complain that he's like watching paint dry or that he's not exciting enough. The guy is as fundamentally sound as anyone I have ever seen in basketball and that goes back to college when Dave Odom had him bringing the ball up the court to break presses. He plays PF because David Robinson was the Spurs Center and there is little reason to switch them around when you look at their skill-sets.

If you look at Duncan's career lines, you'll probably see far fewer Technical Fouls, Foul Outs, Flagrants/Ejections than those he could be compared to (PF or C). He's also probably responsible for more assists and points per his teams' outputs than those he's comparable to as well.

I have always thought Hakeem was a pure joy to watch and could be the most graceful and amazing thing around the basket so I am a fan. But to discount TD because of raw numbers and not look at how much he doesn't go for a block when he cannot afford it (fouls) or when it would be pointless to the game's result, is to DIScredit him for doing what is the smarter thing for his team's results opposed to trying to rack up stats. And despite his amazing career in college, and all the stats he did rack up, he never seemed to be trying for any of them (and I remember him coming out of games on the verge of triple doubles at WFU).

 

hakeem's PER in the '93, '94, '95 playoffs, when he took his game to a level he had never reached before, allowing him to win championships instead of being knocked out in the 1st round: 27.1

hakeem's PER in the previous 8 seasons, when he wasn't very motivated and clearly wasn't at the kind of level that could win it all: 26.0

man, that 1.1 difference really just completely explains that whole not making it out of the 1st round versus winning championships thing.

 

Wow..... just keep digging that hole. So Olajuwon (obviously you have no understanding of his upbringing or Nigerian culture if you believe he was raised to be passive) one day, out of the blue, beyond all the other insults, decided that he was disrespected by David Robinson, and SUDDENLY becomes this competitive beast.

Yeah buddy... makes PERFECT sense.... just keep digging that hole.

Here is a thought.... MAYBE Olajuwon was surrounded with inept management and coaching for the first 7-8 years of his career, and that is why they did not win more... bizarre... he goes to the finals the one time he has a healthy Ralph Sampson... he wins titles when he finally as an above average supporting cast.....

 

No poster here is disrespecting Duncan. He's a great player. The debate is whether he is in Olajuwon's stratosphere. I say not quite.

If you read Gladwell's book Blink, it starts out with a story about how people with a lot of art knowledge immediately know something is wrong with a piece even though they can't define it precisely.

Here, it's a little different because nothing is wrong with either player and some posters on here (like me) are old enough to have seen both players from college on while it is obvious some aren't quite that old. There is also the added complication of loyalty to the Rockets or Spurs and the emotional investment we have with each player bringing championships and long-awaited national respect.

Still, There are some things that validate my intuition (experience+observation+basketball junkie-itis) that Olajuwonis the greater basketball player. Stats are only one. The remarks of players who played with both are another. The general consensus of people who know basketball is yet another. The long-held belief that a center is worth more than a PF, Duncan's troubles at the line in Finals, his reluctance to consistently guard the opposing team's best post player, Olajuwon's ridiculous combo of blocks and steals, Dream's consistent excellence through a number of different team configurations, and Dream's overall impact on the game are other points to consider.

So, it's slightly more objective than arguing about the best Texas BBQ joint, but I'd be happy eating at any of the top 20 places. I'm just lucky that i got to sit at the best table during the Olajuwon years.

 

I agree. Duncan is a first ballot hall of famer and the definition of a franchise player. He has played at a high level for a long time, and other than nearly signing with Orlando, has been very true to San Antonio.

However, he is not as good as Olajuwon.

 

Dave Feitl
Lester Connor

Etc

And these are rotation players.

If you want to talk dominance regarding Tim v Dream, imitation might be the best form of flattery. Dream was never the endorsement dream. His accent and personality never lent itself to those options. He was 100% dedication to his post craft and he pulled moves that to this day I have never seem replicated. Some, I've never even seen attempted.

So, now, in his post NBA career, we have not only centers seeking his wisdom, we have GUARDS seeking his repertoire (does anyone see future players seeking out Duncan for post moves?). His offense transcended position not because it was solely based on power....though his jump hook coming thru the lane was absolutely automatic and the lynchpin for tbr Dream Shake. It transcended because it was based in a fundamental understanding of balance and positioning. If I can jump before receiving the pass, and transition to my move before you set, I'm already creating space. If I can be automatic with the rolling jump hook, the counter baseline fade becomes indefensible.

Defensively, I don't think "what" watched as much of Dream as I did. He says that Tim was a better position defender but what does that really mean? Players play to their individual strengths. Tim knew he wasn't elitely athletic, so he battled more for position, ie he did his work early. Dream knew he was more athletic, though sometimes undersized, than his counterpart. So Dream was comfortable battling on the low block because he knew he could still alter or block your shot (a lost one on one art...most blocks now are weakside). Tim was great in his own respect, but struggled against those that had multiple comfort zones, or guys that could force him to their spot...ie Sheed, Shaq. Dream didn't have those deficiencies, as he could battle both down low and on the perimeter.

Now, whomever said that Duncan played the 3 for certain games is exactly correct. I saw those games, often live and in person. Tim was the 3, Robinson the 4, and Purdue the 5. I don't think that should be overlooked in the greatness of Duncan. His skills were malleable enough that he could play the 3 effectively. Dream couldn't have done that for lack of ballhandling. But Tim couldn't dominate centers and absolutely control the paint the way Dream did. Has everyone forgotten that Dream is the ONLY player to retire as top 10 in both blocks and steals?

A player of Duncan's stature, imo, will be seen again. A big man with a mastery of fundamentals and great character will happen again. A center with a dominant offense and defense, virtually unstoppable even with triple teams, capable of guarding the 3-5 positions, with revolutionary footwork and creativity may never be seen again.

 

May i oint that Duncan and Ginobili destroyed the defense that Shaq-Kobe and lot´s of help couldn´t the year before??

There is a point where you have to decide either of two things, either Ginobili is a Superstar and 2 allstar appearences doesn´t reflect what he is, or Duncan is even greater than what he is given.

Either Duncan was in a great team (thus making Ginobili -most probably- or Parker superstar talent.
Or either, he had no real superstars alongside him. (which in this case makes him great)

 

Prime Ginobili was a superstar and second only to Kobe amongst shooting guards.

 

No way. Wade was better than him 2006 and beyond and McGrady was better than Manu before 2006.