The Yao-only fans don't annoy me as much as some of the Francis pilgrims. Those are the ones who regard Francis as God and viciously cursing the critics.
Alright, Member. My point isn't that Rudy did this or Steve did that...or even what they didn't do. I'm talking about threads like these. Yeah, yeah; you're entitled to your opinion, blah, blah, blah. Well here's mine: you are a hater. You have never posted anything positive on this board that I have read in the 10 months I have been here. I'm glad you are so filled with hate. It makes me happy to see you unhappy, because if it weren't for that, what would you post about? You shut up for a little while when Francis put the team on his back and singlehandedly beat Portland...Hell, you even changed your whole demeanor on him. Until Yao got 4 shots and Steve got 22. Yao is God, isn't he? Steve, by your logic, would then be Satan. So go on with your yapping about evil Steve, and I will put you on my ignore list. I also encourage anyone who reads this thread to do the same. Bye jlaw.
I am not here to diss SF. Since you ask if there is any qualitative description to turnovers, I could tell you this. There SURE is. A turnover that was trying to involve a teammate is always better than the one that was a result of ISO play. If you dont see that, you dont know basketball. Basketball is a always a team sport. Teamwork is even more important now since the reinstitution of zone defense in NBA.
After Harland, it is your turn Dr. Donk. First, I never used 8 turnovers as my primary argument. It was merely an evidence, FACT, to support my argument. Read the title of this thread, "SF leadership under scrutiny". You falsefully accused me of criticizing SF as a non-team player. He is a team player, but his leadership now is inadequate for the team to win the games they could have won. Second, I don't need any credibility to post anything here. I'm not looking for agreement from anyone. I just want to make my comment and talk about anything I want in regards to Rox games and players. This is an open forum for feedbacks and comments. If everyone out here needs credibility to make a post, I think somewhere in the forum registration should state this clearly. But I don't think any forums out there would have this kind of senseless criteria. And this forum has by far attracted a lot of dedicated and loyal Rox fans and extremely successful. You may be somehow affiliated with this BBS, but, regardless of your status, I would not tolerate your wrongful accusation. At last, Yao fans, Rox fans, SF lovers or haters, Cat lovers or haters, please continue enjoying this forum. This BBS is just getting more fun!! Yes, I'm a bigger Yao fan than SF fan. Court adjourned!
YOU ARE THE STUPIDEST PERSON IN THE WORLD! 4 rebs 2stls away from a quad double, not a leader? not a passer? (hey dumbass he had 10 assists) get the f*** out with that S***
Interesting point, You claim that a stat of 8 turnovers backs your opinion yet refuse to acknowledge the stats of {31 points, 10 asists, 6 rebounds, & 8 steals} is adequate to show that your opinion may be flawed. If you think that JKidd would not take that stat line then you need some serious help. Creditability is not bestowed like magic. Everybody has a right to their opinion and I certianly respect yours ( although I do not agree with it). But the more you draw at straws to try and prove your point , the more people will not take you seriously. If you believe that Steve is inadequate in the leadership trait that is fine but do not expect everyone to just accept it as fact if you have no other basis than your opinion. If you want to base your arguement on stats then check this out... Steve had 8 turnovers but he also had 8 steals so any loss of a shot was cancelled out by his steals. That would leave his {31 points, 10 asists, & 6 rebounds} as his stat line. Put that in your pipe and smoke it because whatever you are smoking now is screwin up your brain.
This is completely ludicrous. You're saying it is ok to turn the ball over 8 times and steal the ball back 8 times. Are you the one that is "SMOKING" something now? What is the logic of your thinking? It is like you are telling the spouse of your patient, "I made 8 mistakes during the surgery but I did 8 other good things. But the bad news was he died."
after reading this thread it's obvious that it's impossible to argue with jmoron because he doesn't pay attention. everything is answered back with "oh well you just say that because you're a steve lover" how can you in one post say that stats don't mean anything yet continually berate someone's skill based on one particular stat from one friggin game. yes, everyone realizes that 8 turnovers is terrible, nobody is trying to put a spin on that. however it's not a norm and what he provides despite that is amazing. how come you still can't reply to why jason kidd is as turnover prone as steve? right because it makes you look really, really bad. get over it. steve will be the POINT guard for the next 10 plus, imo, hall of fame years.
Yes, you simply used it as an argument. An argument you tried to back up by saying that Kidd and Payton don't have such stats. You were proven wrong in that Kidd averages more turnovers in fewer minutes. I see you're still evading that. Just admit it. You were wrong. And it was shown it proved nothing. Do you enjoy being humiliated? Here is your quote : You read those last two sentences you yourself typed and try to squirm out of the fact you're saying Steve is not a team player. You state the way he plays could damage the Rockets and that yao is the opposite : the team comes first. That about says it all. Buddy, you don't even have a case, much less a court.
You'd think so. But some members of the Cult-of-Steve get so hostile at any criticism of Francis, they have to assault other people's loyalty and status as true Rocket fans. I don't think it's unreasonable to question the leadership qualities of Francis. I mean, it all depends on how you define "leader." If you define it as someone who tries to carry the team on their back using their athletic ability, then Francis is your guy. If you define it as someone who runs the offense, has great court vision, etc., Francis right now clearly isn't that type of leader -- and I don't think he ever will be. But I define a leader as someone who elevates the level and quality of play of everyone else on the team. And given the Rocket's inability to play team ball the past few years, I'm not sure I can go with Francis. Maybe he's a victim of the team's chronic injuries. Maybe he's a victim of the team not being able to execute the offense effectively. Or maybe he's a victim of bad coaching. The funny thing is, a lot of defenders of Steve insist that you can't fault Steve for the Rockets struggles, when everyone else on the team sucks -- they can't hit their shots, they don't show up to play, etc. To which I could say, I rest my case. Yao on the other hand has seemed to make things come so much easier for the Rockets as a whole when he is involved. Maybe it's not all of Yao's doing -- he could be the beneficiary of the Rockets finally getting over injuries, of getting more time to gel, of having another dominant player occupying the other team's attention. But he has shown in his short time here a willingness to involve the other guys, along with the smarts to know how to do this. Don't respond by accusing me of being a Yaoist -- although I know there are some guys out there thinking, "with a handle like hamachi he must be another one of those slant-eyed, Yao-lovin', rice-eatin', Rockets-hatin' bandwagoners." (Not that it matters, but I'm not Japanese or Chinese -- I just happened to be eating sushi when I picked my user name. But you can't deny that race will shade some people's interpretation of this post). Anyway, if someone wants to criticize aspects of Yao's game, I could care less -- given his youth, no doubt he's deserved criticism, and will deserve more of it as he gains more NBA experience. But Steve fanatics (and they are fanatics, not just fans), well, many of them simply can't cope with criticism of their man. They get excessively defensive, and lash out. That's what makes me more inclined to lean towards supporting the Yao camp. In the end, anointing a team leader is really pointless. It's just some ceremonial role. But I get the feeling that who serves as this figurehead is a lot more important to the Steve fanatics, and maybe even Steve himself, than to the Yao fans -- and certainly Yao himself. So I say let Steve rule in title -- while Yao becomes the de-facto leader by example.
jlaw, bben, and superpro: Would you three biased Yao Ming fans stop posting garbage??? It's Y.M. fans like you that make even the non-Steve-lovers defend Steve and the non-Yao-haters trash Yao! I do see flaws in Steve, but so what if he isn't a leader like Jason Kidd!?! There's a freaken leader in each and every team. If you think Steve isn't the leader, then who is or who do you think that's AVAILABLE that the Rockets could trade for?????? Until you have started a thread to bash Yao Ming, quit bashing Steve! Your love for Yao Ming has probably blinded your cognitive abilities. First you blame Rockets guards for for not getting Yao touches in games he played poorly. Now Yao is doing well, and you think he should be the main focal point of the team and find ways to belittle and criticize other players(Steve and Cuttino) on the team. I am Chinese and I, as well as many others, can see that your arguments are partial and flawed. Lately, there are many redundant, dumb, and worthless posts from new users that clog up this forum and make reading other posts a bad experience. I suggest that these new members unload their trash on the ESPN forums and not here, please. I advocate that all new users registered after May(that includes me) be allowed to make one post a month only. Better yet, they shouldn't be allowed to post at all! I'll go back to lurking now.
Seems to me we are forgetting that basketball is a team game - no one person can win it. I see Steve as the leader. He is after all the Franchise. I'm sure he is glad to have Yao as team mate to clog up the lanes, provide some defensive presence and generally make things easier for him by attracting attention away from him. From what I have read about Yao, he seems to be happy doing his part and learning to fit into the team. Let's not forget he's only a rookie and will have good and bad games. Give him time to mature and develop and adjust to the NBA game. As of now, I do not think he is the answer, but he is certainly part of the solution.
The #1 reason why we won't move Steve to the SG position is because, when he learns to become a more efficient passer, he will be one of the top 3 or 4 players in the NBA. But if we move him to SG, he will not improve that aspect of his game, he will lose the rebounding advantage, and he will be ABUSED by other SG's. He becomes, Allen Iverson. Score, and nothing else. That's not what we want. Steve is bringing you all the scoring you want from the PG position, and he's not a bad PG. In fact, he's slightly above average as a passer. He just hasn't mastered it. Once he does, then tell me, who's the best all-round player in the league? He scores He rebounds He passes He leads He steals He works hard Obviously, now he wins It's like our very own Tracy McGrady at the PG position. Wizards staff have already commented on how physically strong he is too, another underrated aspect of his game. Steve Francis has too just polish his jumper a bit more, and work on his 3-pt shot. Once he slightly improves in both those areas, tell me he can't be the #1 player in the league. But, unlike McGrady, Francis has someone who can get it done on the inside, and has enough talent around him not to have to score 30, dish out 10 assists, grab 10 rebounds, pick 10 steals, and block 5 shots. No, he doesn't. What yo're forgetting is this: When you ARE the primary offensive option, on any other team, your PG would get the assists for setting you up with winning/important shots. But when you ARE the PG adn the primary option, that obviously shaves a few assists off your total. Right now, Francis doesn't need to pass MORE. He just needs to be more efficient. In fact, 6 or 7 assists a game is great, as long as he keeps the turnovers down.
Well nice of you to use a life and death situation to describe a mere discussion. Anyway , you were the one trying to use the 8 turnovers as a basis for proving Steve has no leadership, in terms of the number of shots the teams lost during those 8 turnovers. Do you remember a previous post of yours: I was merely trying to show the fallacy in your arguement that if 8 turnovers are 8 missed opportunities than 8 steals are 8 additional oportunities. CASE CLOSED!!!
This have to be the funniest thread I ever see after all these years!!! I recalled last season or the season before that Kidd had a game of 14TOs..... what kind of TO is that? I think is those so called "unforgivable" TO. 14TOs!!! that's not the point anyway..... it is obvious that Francis is the leader of this team, and truthfully so to be one. u saying his leadership under scrunity? find me another player in this team that is capable to do so? what? Yao Ming? Yeah, he can be the leader of course.....but the quiet one.... the one which will quietly do anything to help the team to win...... u also need a noisy one..... the one will be Francis which will show what he feels in the game and lead the team in a different way than Francis..... Do we need Francis to win? Yes. Do we need Yao Ming to win? Yes. Do we need them to be leader? YES!!! WE NEED BOTH OF THEM!!! there's no one in a team which is going to be the LONE leader. U need more than one leader in a team..... too bad, Cat wun really be the leader (IMO, though sometimes he can be), that leaves Francis and soon, Yao Ming to bring this team. They need each other to lead this team. Francis to learn from Ming? they can learn from each other. They need each other to win the game. The way Francis lead on court can bring out the atmosphere to win, Ming can lead with doing everything he could to win. Players will follow leader like this. But they need both of them to lead!! Give them some time..... and you can see that both of them are going to be the leader of this young Rockets team!!!
Well said, totally agreed. By the way, how was the sushi. It's funny that Hamachi is no Chinese, and Toughguy is. Who's next.
