[Government Sanctioned Theft] IDF agrees to expansion of West Bank settlement

The truth prevails. You consider it just "a few buildings in the desert" but Israel hasn't built these. The Israeli government sanctioned the theft and construction of these lands which belong to people with deeds and claims. People who are being simultaneously denied both the right to be part of a country, and the right to have a country by the very same Israeli government.

Whereas, once again, you're shocked that one religious guy stepped into one of the holiest places in all of "Islam", publicly and loudly insulted key figures in Islam, and got arrested by the Saudi government and 500 lashes. People get lashed and imprisoned far more than that for far far less in Saudi. On top of that, it's almost as if you expect me to take some responsibility for a religion I don't follow, relating to two countries I have no connections with, and by a government which has not been voted in by the people of KSA. This childish game you're playing is getting old. Start a thread about that topic, and talk about it there. You're also indirectly hinting that Israel's morality should be relative to the morality of any country with the "lowest" moral standards you can find, which is a pretty despicable position to take.

It's not confusing why Saudi is the way it is since it is run by one person and that person will run it exactly as he wants. You want to know why these things happen in KSA? Ask the King. It's that simple. But it is confusing why the Israeli government is the way it is if its people are voting this way, and it is confusing why "Western" people are always voting in politicians who support a foreign goverment which does these kinds of things. Either they're not really running a democracy, or most "Western" people are really pro-Israeli government, land/water/freedom theft and all. I like to believe that "Western" democracies are not anywhere as near representative as they are seen to be, because the alternative is an act of undeclared war IMO.

So yes, I am more interested in those "buildings in the desert" than I am interested in what happens when someone goes to a holy place and loudly insults key figures in the belief system of most people around them. If free speech is suspended anywhere, it's there. Those people are on a pilgrimmage, they're going through a ritual and a spiritual experience, the last thing they want to hear is someone sitting and insulting them. Hell, I don't like those figures myself, but you don't see me on a skateboard in Mecca yelling it out to the pilgrims.

 

I only agree with the last paragraph. Strongly contested doesn't mean accurate. I don't know what on earth "as contested as US elections" is supposed to mean?

IMO the rest of your post is full of opinions, and frankly I disagree with far too many of them to start going at them one by one so:

There is only the Israeli government which exploits the Israeli people. They have done this illegitimately by exaggerating the threat of regular Palestinian people attacking Israelis, and also exaggerating the "dire" security situation wrt Iran. All this while ignoring the trigger-happy nature of the Israeli government.

The Israeli government has chosen to widen and distinguish the split of Palestinians, handing Hamas monopoly rights in under-siege Gaza, and handing Fatah the West Bank. Transport between the two areas, as you know, is atrocious. Here, Israel has elected Hamas as the leader of Gaza and Fatah for West Bank. Elections after this point are a joke.

So now it's just a game. Hamas attacks = Palestinian attacks, Fatah negotiations = Israeli peace efforts. So the only thing that apparently happens is Palestinians attack Israelis and Israel negotiates peace. But they have created both of these powers.

It's just an absolute joke that doesn't require much detail. You make it sound as though if the majority of Israelis picked up and went back to their native countries, Palestinians would follow them and attack them in Europe or wherever. This is bull****, you rarely (if ever) hear about a Palestinian attacking and Israeli outside of the Israeli war zone.

What do Palestinians want? They want whatever assets they legally owned to be given back, they want justice on the perpetrators of this theft, they want a country, they want regular human rights, and they want to be reimbursed for their legitimate losses.

Are these unusual things to ask for? If these demands are not resolved over 5-10 decades, is it rational for a population (whose constant death toll will be historically remembered btw) to resort to resistance?

If these people look around the West Bank and see that Israel hasn't given anything to Palestinians in 60 years, are they wrong to look west to the Gazans whom, at the very least, don't have any settlers to worry about? When they see Hamas rising in proportional power, aren't they going to be interested in pursuing the increased jobs/money that Hamas can now offer?

Regardless of all this, the Israeli government continues to sanction theft of land and approving construction on top of it while claiming that it is interested in negotiations which are directly related to that land. Something is not normal here, and I haven't heard a peep out of you about whether it's wrong or right. Do you think a rational secular democracy would create incentives (at the expense of Palestinian livelihood) for its most violent/extremist group of people?

Can Palestinians apply to get that land? Oh wait, only if the Israeli government allows them Israeli citizenship. Only if they vow their loyalty to non-secularism in the Jewish form. Or!! They can get their own country and defend themselves with an organized army? No, no country. So they have to be labelled terrorists because they don't have nice uniforms.

The Israeli government and the Palestinian "governments" are far removed from people. Israeli and Palestinian people have been fed enough stuff on either side to start to lean towards the views of the political parties (funny, this is the opposite of democracy). In the world, there are tons of countries who list the Palestinian "governments" as terrorist or quasi-terrorist regimes. There are dozens of countries that don't accept the existence of Israel, and now tons of Israelis/Jews who are dettaching themselves from Israel (as I'm sure you've read in the news, the Israeli government is taking a hard line approach against those crazy rogue disagreers!!). These governments are a sham and most people know it. It will take much longer for Israelis to get infuriated, but eventually they will. Palestinians are over this whole thing and just want OUT for now.

No one knows the extent of the sham until history studies it. We'll see if history shows all these "facts" to hold true:

- Palestinians simply don't want peace.
- Palestinians want Hamas.
- Palestinians opt into this war for decades despite knowing they can not win.
- Palestinian people want to kill Israeli people if they're allowed.
- The IDF acts rationally.
- The settlers have a right to all land they stolen from people/government.
- Palestinians and Jordanians are the same.
- Israeli gov is genuinely interested in peace negotiations.
- etc

If you believe this list of things, it's no wonder you would see them as mindless terrorists. This is the list of things that you are being fed, every day, with a different spoon, on a different plate, with different seasoning, but it's always the same crap.

Don't eat it. Israelis would do exactly what Palestinians do if they swapped places and circumstances. Palestinians would do exactly what Israelis do if they swapped places and circumstances. They all want their basic human rights. They are not getting them.

 

Props to Netenyahu on the acting.

Though biased, a very interesting internal perspective:

 

Yawn. These imaginary people who are on board with the lashes, when are they going to show up? We keep hearing about them from you, but never see them, it's almost as if you're making them up.

 

- No, it simply doesn't mean that. Rigged elections can come up with anything from 50.1% to 100%, none of these numbers make a difference when determining whether they are free and fair elections.

- I wasn't saying you shouldn't post your opinions, I meant to say it would take far longer to respond to a post full of opinions rather than a post full of facts.

- Sham governments. Only one government's will ever materializes, and that's the Israeli government. Hamas, PLO, etc all fall in line according to the Israeli government's instructions. It's not even a stretch given the animosity Israeli government has shown towards the demise of various tyrants in the Middle East. It clearly shows that they don't quite believe in self-determination and are more than willing to intervene in sovereign affairs where unwanted.

- You're right, I should have been clearer. I meant to say the Israeli government disproportionately exaggerates the threat from Palestinian civilians to Israeli civilians. You used one of the most extreme examples anyone is aware of (9/11). That's not a good example, that's more likely an outlier wrt how much it was exaggerated.

- Yes, absolutely, Hamas is undefeatable in Gaza and getting stronger as long as the siege continues. The fact that there were bloody battles is further proof that these are not free and fair elections. The fact that, as you said, the US wanted to "give" it to Fatah is further evidence that they are not free and fair. The fact that Hamas has all the money, all the jobs, and all the control in Gaza makes them the default leading political party.

- You miss the point. When Hamas attacks, Israel claims a "Palestinian" attack. When Israel negotiates peace with Fatah, it claims it is negotiating with all Palestinians. These are all distortions, but it's not the distortion that's important as much as the games that the Israeli government is playing with the minds of the Israeli people.

- When you say Palestinians don't want peace, you imply that Palestinians are aggressors by nature. Certainly they want peace, but obviously not at the terms of the Israeli government. Palestinians want peace as much as Israelis want peace, both have their terms, and that's ok. But Hamas painting Jews as eternal war mongers, and Israeli government painting Palestinians as eternal war mongers makes it impossible to reach an agreement. There is a middle ground, and we are at present working away from it rather than towards it.

- I was speaking about all Palestinians, how could you bring it down to the Hamas charter as a representation of the Palestinian people? This is exactly what I'm talking about. Hamas wants all sorts of crazy ****, and they are the default choice in Gaza. Resisting the leader is a sin and not allowed in their school of thought, what does that say about Gazans ability to find themselves a new leader? Hamas is too strong in Gaza.

- As long as you agree it's rational. You can't expect anyone to act any other way.

- People in West Bank want no settlers, and people in Gaza want more jobs. Gaza will eventually create the jobs, West Bank will never lose those settlers.

- So is it right or wrong? It is not smart, because smartness would include consideration of ethics. It is strateically sound if the strategy is about acquiring as much land as possible by any means possible. FYI Rawabi city is a mess and Israeli government is denying them key permissions to build it.

- No, it's not an oath of loyalty to the country. It's an oath of loyalty to a non-secular government which doesn't represent them. It's a sham, everyone knows it, and even the most repressive middle eastern regimes don't engage in this kind of humiliating behavior. They are natives of the land which Israel owns and continues to steal, they should be involved in telling Israelis what oath to take.

- Yes, they would be fine if they conformed, like they would be in Egypt, Bahrain, Libya, Syria, etc. Me thinks the conforming era is reaching a close in the Middle East. While I have absolutely no respect for your opinion that Palestinians are better served living without resistance in their Israeli owned (but not claimed) life, I'm hopeful that it will only be an option for another 10-15 years.

- The political party choosing the people = opposite of democracy. People choosing the party = democracy. Simple enough.

The rest of your post is just an obnoxious attempt to deride Palestinians, I won't do the same I have nothing against Israelis at all. For me, its sufficient that you've switched to your "well they can do whatever they want, it doesn't matter" mode. You seem to be very optimistic about the Israeli government's future, I disagree with that.

Rogue attacks are an inevitability in every lopsided war/battle, no exceptions. The media will determine whether they're freedom fighters or terrorists. This is why huge numbers of Israeli government senior officials used to work for terrorist or suspected terrorist organizations at the beginning of and before the birth of Israel. As I've been saying all along, these governments are all cut from the same cloth. Since peaceful resistance and peace negotiations have been taken off the table, they are left with conforming to the Israeli government demands or terrorism. How did Israeli "leaders" act the last time they were put in this identical situation?

Wiki: Lehi