Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

In This Thread Every Post Must Contain A Lockout Update

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by DallasThomas, Nov 1, 2011.

Tags:

Page 51 of 98

J.R. Member

Joined:

Jun 30, 2008

Messages:

113,901

Likes Received:

175,214

ZachLowe_SI Zach Lowe

So Dwight and CP3 can have sign-and-trades, but Blake and Wall and Young Player X can't? #bandaids
Click to expand...

ChrisMannixSI Chris Mannix

All this talk about letting the players vote. Sense I'm getting is that if that happened, it would be overwhelmingly against NBA's offer
Click to expand...

#1001 J.R., Nov 11, 2011
Last edited: Nov 11, 2011

crash5179 Member

Joined:

Dec 9, 2000

Messages:

16,468

Likes Received:

1,297

heypartner said: ↑

I'm not really in disagreement here. But you do realize the league is not negotiating. This isn't a negotiation...and they are risking a revolt. Whether you believe a revolt has merit or is warranted, I DO NOT want the owners to push the players off a cliff.

There are other ways to have profitability *and* significant improvement in competitive balance ... I strongly believe the owners are doing this wrong and don't really care about competitive balance...certainly the Haves do not care. The have a vested interest in maintaining a competitive divide.
Click to expand...

I'm of the opinion that with out negotiations the deal would be 47 / 53 BRI in favor of the owners with a hard cap. I have no idea what you mean by saying the league is not negotiating. I guess they are only negotiating if the give the players a deal that does not creat annual loses in the millions for the owners?

#1002 crash5179, Nov 11, 2011
crash5179 Member

Joined:

Dec 9, 2000

Messages:

16,468

Likes Received:

1,297

JuanValdez said: ↑

Teams (Lakers and others) may have already made certain roster decisions to prepare the way for a sign-and-trade, and an immediate ban for the luxury teams could make the sacrifices they made wasted.

Personally, I think the league is right on the systems issues. They need to do something to protect small franchises. I just wish they'd give up some more BRI% to buy those changes from the players.

And, I still think the losses the league suffered last year were manufactured. They've been generally profitable until just recently. I think they consolidated a lot of expenses so that they could show a loss, and I expect to see a sudden resurgence of profitability right after the CBA is signed, over and above the reduction in their payroll expenses.
Click to expand...

You can't field a championship competitive team with out losing millions. It's impossible under the current business model. That is why Ross Perot was suing Mark Cuban. He felt it was mis-management to annually lose money even if that is what it took to field a competitive team.

#1003 crash5179, Nov 11, 2011
Carl Herrera Member

Joined:

Feb 16, 2007

Messages:

45,153

Likes Received:

21,575

hsf09 said: ↑

ZachLowe_SI Zach Lowe
Click to expand...

The young players can have S&T, just not to tax paying teams.

Realistically, what this means is that teams will need to clear space under the tax threshold in order to S&T a star. Probably not a bad thing for franchises with money savvy GMs who can do math.

#1004 Carl Herrera, Nov 11, 2011
Rocketman95 Hangout Boy

Joined:

Feb 15, 1999

Messages:

48,984

Likes Received:

1,445

crash5179 said: ↑

Yeah imagine those greedy owners actually wanting to make a profit and not just break even.

The reason I'm on the owner side is because it should not be mandatory that an owner lose money in order to field a championship contending team. Plus there is plenty of money for the average NBA player to make millions and every owner to make a nice profit (not lose money or just break even). What other business almost garuntees the rank and file employee gets rich while the owner loses millions every year?
Click to expand...

if all they care about is making money, kindly get the **** out of this business and leave it to those who actually love the game please. this all started when people started buying teams as investments rather than toys of billionaires. it's like complaining you bought a luxury yacht and it's worth less than what you paid for it three years later.

#1005 Rocketman95, Nov 11, 2011
JuanValdez Member

Joined:

Feb 14, 1999

Messages:

35,051

Likes Received:

15,225

crash5179 said: ↑

You can't field a championship competitive team with out losing millions. It's impossible under the current business model. That is why Ross Perot was suing Mark Cuban. He felt it was mis-management to annually lose money even if that is what it took to field a competitive team.
Click to expand...

Here are the Conference Finalists with Forbes' estimate of their Operating Income:

DAL -$7.8m
MIA -$5.9m
CHI +$51.3m
OKC +$22.6m

So, I think it is possible to field a competitive team without losing millions. Even if OKC paid as much for their players as Dallas and Miami did, they'd still be well into the black.

#1006 JuanValdez, Nov 11, 2011
ascaptjack Member

Joined:

Sep 12, 2011

Messages:

4,690

Likes Received:

140

ZachLowe_SI Zach Lowe
So Dwight and CP3 can have sign-and-trades, but Blake and Wall and Young Player X can't? #bandaids

ZachLowe_SI Zach Lowe
NBA is delighted with player movement, as long as said movement involves the players they want moving.

ChrisMannixSI Chris Mannix
All this talk about letting the players vote. Sense I'm getting is that if that happened, it would be overwhelmingly against NBA's offer

chLowe_SI Zach Lowe
If NBA wanted to restrict player movement, as Silver said last night, why did they start negotiations w/ strict limitations on Bird Rights?

ChrisMannixSI Chris Mannix
Concern expressed by two young players: If we take this bad deal now, what kind of deal will we be looking at six years from now?

KBergCBS Ken Berger
Funny how everyone wants players to vote. How about pressuring owners to vote on players' proposal, see how they like it.@ChrisMannixSI

ChrisMannixSI Chris Mannix @
@KBergCBS "Let them vote" has become one of those sound bytes I don't really get. Like 350 players are lurking, ready to deal now

HowardBeckNYT Howard Beck
. @KBergCBS @ChrisMannixSI Best argument I've heard for full player vote: if it's this deal or no season, all 440 should decide.

HowardBeckNYT Howard Beck
. @KBergCBS @ChrisMannixSI and I heard that argument made today by an agent.

ZachLowe_SI Zach Lowe
Forgotten footnote: Union tried to address balance concerns early on w/ proposal to give bad teams two first-round picks.

#1007 ascaptjack, Nov 11, 2011

crash5179 Member

Joined:

Dec 9, 2000

Messages:

16,468

Likes Received:

1,297

Groogrux said: ↑

if all they care about is making money, kindly get the **** out of this business and leave it to those who actually love the game please. this all started when people started buying teams as investments rather than toys of billionaires. it's like complaining you bought a luxury yacht and it's worth less than what you paid for it three years later.
Click to expand...

So is that your message to the players as well?

There's plenty of money for all owners to make a nice profit and field a contending team and for the players to make their millions. And regardless what you think it is a business and you better be glad it is or you would have to go to a play ground to watch them play instead of nice plush arenas or on tv

#1008 crash5179, Nov 11, 2011
crash5179 Member

Joined:

Dec 9, 2000

Messages:

16,468

Likes Received:

1,297

JuanValdez said: ↑

Here are the Conference Finalists with Forbes' estimate of their Operating Income:

DAL -$7.8m
MIA -$5.9m
CHI +$51.3m
OKC +$22.6m

So, I think it is possible to field a competitive team without losing millions. Even if OKC paid as much for their players as Dallas and Miami did, they'd still be well into the black.
Click to expand...

Right. And how many players on Chi and OKC are still on their rookie contracts? Yeah that's what I thought.

#1009 crash5179, Nov 11, 2011
supdudes Member

Joined:

Feb 9, 2009

Messages:

2,530

Likes Received:

126

SKYRIM!

#1010 supdudes, Nov 11, 2011
Spooner Member

Joined:

Nov 13, 2009

Messages:

8,052

Likes Received:

2,841

Groogrux said: ↑

if all they care about is making money, kindly get the **** out of this business and leave it to those who actually love the game please. this all started when people started buying teams as investments rather than toys of billionaires. it's like complaining you bought a luxury yacht and it's worth less than what you paid for it three years later.
Click to expand...

lol wow....

#1011 Spooner, Nov 11, 2011
ascaptjack Member

Joined:

Sep 12, 2011

Messages:

4,690

Likes Received:

140

http://espn.go.com/dallas/nba/story...vericks-jason-terry-players-set-walk-deal-bad

Dallas Mavericks player representative Jason Terry said that if the proposal NBA commissioner David Stern delivered to the union late Thursday night is not a substantial improvement from the league's prior one, players will be prepared to walk away, even if it threatens losing the entire season.

"Our reasoning and what our strategy is, is we are trying to grow the game of basketball, and under the terms that have been presented to us, the game of basketball for us, from a players' perspective, financially, will not be growing," Terry said Friday morning during an appearance on the "Ben and Skin Show" on 103.3 FM ESPN.

"We will actually be getting rid of a class. In life and society there are three classes: There's the upper class, the middle class and lower class. And what the owners are trying to do right now, what their proposal is, get rid of the middle class so you have one or two guys on each team making 'X' and the rest of the guys crunched down at a smaller number and then no middle ground."

Terry was speaking about the proposal that he was briefed on earlier this week in New York. Terry will head back to New York on Monday or Tuesday to meet with NBPA executive director Billy Hunter, union president Derek Fisher and the rest of the league's player reps to dissect the newest proposal.

Terry said the union has seen "plenty of" bad deals proposed by the owners in the past couple of months, and "it's just not acceptable."

When asked if players will be ready to walk away from Friday night's proposal -- which includes a 72-game schedule to start on Dec. 15 -- if it is not deemed acceptable by union leaders, Terry said: "No question."

Stern said that if this proposal is not accepted, the owners will "reset" to their far more rigid proposal from earlier in the summer, when they called for a 53/47 revenue split in the owners' favor, along with a restrictive flex salary cap and rollbacks on existing salaries.

Terry, who expressed concern for would-be rookies and players coming off their rookie seasons who might not have the financial wherewithal to withstand a prolonged lockout, as well as the arena workers whose hours are being slashed without NBA games to work, said the players simply can't be pushed into taking a bad deal.

"The proposals that have been proposed to us have not been good, not been good at all," Terry said. "For us to take a bad deal at this point as players would be not good for the game of basketball and it won't be good for the players going on into the future.

"We just don't think it's fair and it's not what has been built with the prior bargaining agreements."
Click to expand...

#1012 ascaptjack, Nov 11, 2011
JuanValdez Member

Joined:

Feb 14, 1999

Messages:

35,051

Likes Received:

15,225

crash5179 said: ↑

Right. And how many players on Chi and OKC are still on their rookie contracts? Yeah that's what I thought.
Click to expand...

I think the only rookie contract of any consequence in Chicago's roster is Rose, and he still made $5m. If he was making max under the old rules, he'd cost them, what, another $6m or so?

But, I'm not sure how it matters anyway since rookie scale rules under the old CBA and the new CBA controls costs for rookie contracts for all teams. Maybe contending with top-flight talent on rookie deals is just a good strategy. It's not like CHI and OKC are benefitting from something that other teams don't have access to.

#1013 JuanValdez, Nov 11, 2011

trueroxfan Member

Joined:

Apr 24, 2008

Messages:

4,170

Likes Received:

143

ascaptjack said: ↑

Terry, who expressed concern for would-be rookies and players coming off their rookie seasons who might not have the financial wherewithal to withstand a prolonged lockout, as well as the arena workers whose hours are being slashed without NBA games to work, said the players simply can't be pushed into taking a bad deal.
Click to expand...

The real victims here.

#1014 trueroxfan, Nov 11, 2011
ROXTXIA Member

Joined:

Apr 25, 2000

Messages:

20,843

Likes Received:

12,920

JuanValdez said: ↑

Here are the Conference Finalists with Forbes' estimate of their Operating Income:

DAL -$7.8m
MIA -$5.9m
CHI +$51.3m
OKC +$22.6m

So, I think it is possible to field a competitive team without losing millions. Even if OKC paid as much for their players as Dallas and Miami did, they'd still be well into the black.
Click to expand...

Although, Oklahoma City will soon be up against it, having to extend Westbrook (max contract) and Ibaka (big $$$ for centers).

#1015 ROXTXIA, Nov 11, 2011
BetterThanEver Member

Joined:

Oct 9, 2007

Messages:

9,931

Likes Received:

189

JuanValdez said: ↑

I think the only rookie contract of any consequence in Chicago's roster is Rose, and he still made $5m. If he was making max under the old rules, he'd cost them, what, another $6m or so?

But, I'm not sure how it matters anyway since rookie scale rules under the old CBA and the new CBA controls costs for rookie contracts for all teams. Maybe contending with top-flight talent on rookie deals is just a good strategy. It's not like CHI and OKC are benefitting from something that other teams don't have access to.
Click to expand...

You make a good point. Chicago isn't profitable, because of players on rookie contracts. If Rose made as much as Lebron and company, it would have been $10 mil more.

http://hoopshype.com/salaries.htm

Chicago's profit is from having a larger market than most NBA teams.

Chicago metro has a population of almost 10 mil. While most of the NBA teams reside in markets that aren't even half of Chicago's market. Forget half. The other teams would be lucky to have even a quarter of Chicago's market size. Even a crappy team in a huge city can make more money(*I am looking at you, Mr. Sterling and the Clippers*) than a small market team that makes the playoffs.

#1016 BetterThanEver, Nov 11, 2011
Last edited: Nov 11, 2011
J.R. Member

Joined:

Jun 30, 2008

Messages:

113,901

Likes Received:

175,214

RicBucher

New proposal would allow teams to send players to NBDL first 5 years, reduce pay to pro-rated 75K. Talk about non-starters.
Click to expand...

MikeWellsNBA Mike Wells

Pacers player rep Danny Granger said early indications are that the league's latest offer will be rejected by the NBPA.
Click to expand...

ChrisMannixSI Chris Mannix

Potential deal killer RT @RicBucher: New proposal would allow teams to send players to NBDL first 5 years of career and reduce pay to 75K.
Click to expand...

#1017 J.R., Nov 11, 2011
sinobball Member

Joined:

Nov 14, 2009

Messages:

1,156

Likes Received:

78

"Our reasoning and what our strategy is, is we are trying to grow the game of basketball, and under the terms that have been presented to us, the game of basketball for us, from a players' perspective, financially, will not be growing," Terry said Friday morning during an appearance on the "Ben and Skin Show" on 103.3 FM ESPN
....
"The proposals that have been proposed to us have not been good, not been good at all," Terry said. "For us to take a bad deal at this point as players would be not good for the game of basketball and it won't be good for the players going on into the future.
Click to expand...

Somehow losing an entire season and driving many fans away will grow the game? Don't follow his logic.

#1018 sinobball, Nov 11, 2011

J.R. Member

Joined:

Jun 30, 2008

Messages:

113,901

Likes Received:

175,214

NBA_Labor NBA Labor

NBA Proposal: More mid-levels than 2005 CBA: $5M for non-taxpayers, $3M for taxpayers, $2.5M for room teams
Click to expand...

#1019 J.R., Nov 11, 2011
bread and budin Member

Joined:

Oct 21, 2010

Messages:

179

Likes Received:

16

hsf09 said: ↑

NBA_Labor NBA Labor
Click to expand...

No clue what any of that means...

#1020 bread and budin, Nov 11, 2011

(You must log in or sign up to post here.)

Page 51 of 98

Share This Page