Yao Ming's playing time is a hot topic these days on this board. The posts concerning this theme are spread over many threads. Let's streamline the discussion a bit in this thread. Of course, if Ming plays 30 min. tomorrow against the Cavs, this will be a moot point then. Also, I want this thread to concentrate on what happened and why, rather than something like "don't worry, he'll get his minutes when he's ready, blah blah blah." Everybody knows he'll get his minutes when he's ready. The question is Why has he not been deemed ready by the coaching staff? From what I've read so far, we can divide the opinions into 4 camps. 1. It's for the good of the team. It is true that more PT means faster development. But Ming was a liability on the floor. If we played him more, the team would suffer. 2. It's for the good of Ming. It is true that he could help the team more by playing more, but they didn't want to put too much pressure on him. It's better to take him along slowly for the long run than let him help the team now. 3. It's for the good of both Ming and the team. Not playing him more made perfect sense. He couldn't help the team now and bringing him slowly would help him develop better. 4. It benefitted neither Ming nor the team. Not playing him more made no sense. Even with his rookie shortcomings, he could already help the team more than any other center on the team. And he would only develop faster if he had more PT. OK, fire away!
Easy, This is an article that can answer some of your questions. Rudy thinks Ming's defence is not good enough. This is the main reason he puts Ming on the bench. http://www.sportsweekly.com.cn/data/news/new_news/2002/11/18/58417445.html
If you listen to the audio on some of these games, you can hear some of the Rockets yelling to Ming "your man", but Ming is out of position. Especially on defensive rotations where he arrives too late. I noticed this early in the season, but wasn't sure this was why Rudy wasn't giving him playing time.
People need to understand that this is Ming's preseason and training camp. While this is the regular season for everybody else Ming is getting a crash course in what everybody else has spent the last 2 or 3 months learning. It's going to take time for him to catch up and it's easier for him to catch up in practice where he can work with guys, learn the system and the coaches and players can pay attention to detail then playing him during a live game and risk hurting the team and the flow of the game teaching him something.
No. No English version. Rockets require their centers get one rebound in every four minutes. Ming only met this standard three times in his first seven games. Rudy said Ming's defence is not good enough to meet his requirement. Ming said he has pressure to come off bench because that means he has to contribute immediately when he is put in the court and he cannot make any mistakes otherwise he will be substituted. After Cato comes back, Ming has a long way to go to be the starter.
w&s, I read that article. That sort of answered the question from the coach's view. It doesn't mean we have to agree with Rudy T's policy. (What are BBS for other than b****ing with coaches and players? ) Many people on this board are not satisfied with Rudy's decision concerning Ming's playing time. I want to know the proportion of different views on this issue.
It's true that this is his training camp. They have to get him involved, and he needs to know what to do. Not speaking much english is probably his biggest limitation right now. You can tell that he has learned a great deal from practice, and game time. He doesn't appear as lost as he used to, but there is much more improvement to go-a very good thing. I noticed several times during the last game that Yao seemed to ask for direction from the point guard when they were making their way down the floor. The communication barrier is obvious, but they are making strides to overcome it. It's hard to teach the guy if he can't understand you. I don't know how much "training" he's getting in the language dept, but I think it should be stressed more than his weight training. His learning rate will increase faster and faster as he gets more fluent in English. I think he has the feel for a few basic plays they run on offense, and he gets good looks now, and they actually pass him the ball. On defense though, I think he's having to rely on his instincts, and his limited playing time to learn it the hard way, which is why he's getting exposed on defense. Yao is improving every day, is getting more comfortable, more aggressive, and more involved. His teammates are trusting him more. They know what he's capable of. He has some direction now, instead of just being out there hoping to get involved. So to answer the quesition, I think in the next few games, Ming will be playing more. This gradual initiation is just as much to help Yao as it is for his teammates to get accustomed to playing with him-AS A TEAM. Props to Rudy. It is about time that the minutes will go up.
Easy, What happened to the voting option: 5. Because he is inconsistent on defense and offense, and he gets benched for it. ...just like w&s's article is saying. maybe that is the same as #3, but the way you write #3 makes it sound like this is a foregone strategy. No. The strategy could be to give him set rotational minutes no matter what, and give him more as he earns it during games. maybe it is the same as #1, but your #1 means that more PT (no matter how confused the player plays) always translates to quicker development. imo, that is just a theory. THAT is the criteria for Maurice Taylor and Rice right now...so, why not the newbie?
If thats the case, what about pf's? How many rebounds did taylor have last night? I think Rudy is being to cautious just like with Griffin last yr. they're not pro qb's, basketball is a spontaneaos game. They're not running the point, so i don't see the problem. Starting Griffin last night and Collier the 2 games before that made no sense.
HP, your choice is supposed to be included in either #1 or #3 depending on whether you think playing Ming more even when he is struggling should benefit him.
leebigiz, why do you say Rudy was too "cautious" with Griffin? What does that mean? In retrospect, Griffin hit the wall in early March and his production dropped off even though he was starting. Griffin remains inconsistent, a push-over by strong PFs, and not able to define himself in the low post. Griffin had all summer to improve that...yet, he really is still the same player, just getting more minutes. He still has not shown up with offensive consistancy. What about last year would have made Griffin better this year? Maybe Rudy and the coaches knew he was not that good and needs a lot of training and weight gain and just generalized maturity like O'Neal to find his own. You, however, seem to say that Griffin would be a better player right now with a few more minutes last year.
Easy, Not really. My choice is It is for the good of the team, with no quanlfyer that requires me to accept your statement "it is true that more PT means faster development." I do not believe the difference between 15 and 25 minutes is significant to rookie development, and I think that 39 minutes like Battier got last year will cause Yao to hit the rookie wall and make many mistakes and could actually hamper his development. If we burn out Yao (and Griffin did burn out last year), then Yao will not get good PT when the team is most clicking and when games are being played in playoff races. The worst thing that could happen to Yao is to overplay him now because you believe religiously that that means better play later in the season, yet, what ends up happening is Yao slows down, gets tired, and can't play just when he is most mentally ready to play and the team is most ready to use new offensive sets that exploit him. That would be a shame. That must be avoided in any strategy defining minutes.
If what windandsea said is true, that article seems wrong to me. There aren't any numerical equations and standards for Ming to meet, such as getting a rebound every 4 minutes. Maybe there's a cultural misunderstanding coming from the writer. Also, Rudy isn't the type of coach to bench Ming immediately for making a mistake. If that were the case, Francis would have been benched a few times his rookie year as well. He's just bringing Ming along slowly so that he doesn't lose his confidence early on and also because he still needs to learn the Rocket's system. Since he's still learning the system, it would be detrimental to the team because his being lost would cause too many problems. Basically, like others have said, Ming has a lot to learn and the team can afford to bring him along slowly so that he doesn't jeopardize games and so that he doesn't get overwhelmed early on. The way Ming has been playing lately, it seems he will be starting or at least getting starter's minutes before the allstar break.
I could understand bringing Yao in slowly, so he could adjust the system better. But I just couldn't understand why bench a player when was doing well and getting hot on his shooting. Starting Collier over Yao has nothing to do with adjusting to the system. I dont think starting Yao, in the absence of Cato, would intimidate Yao's confidence. Whatever going through Rudy's head is somewhat complicated, if not chaotic. I could only guess he tried to allow Yao to adjust slowly, distributing PT for everyone, except Nach, showing respect for some of the veterans without causing bad feeling among his players, or maybe still trying to find the right combinations of players. I think I am as confused as he is.
Ditto to Oski and heypartner. And Rudy's strategy with Yao is working. He's more comfortable with every game, he doesn't seem to have any problems with the minutes he's getting and he's getting more as he gets more comfortable. There are a lot of people watching Yao right now and there hasn't been much to write about, so scandals are invented when they don't exist. This minutes question (which accounts for nearly half of this board's posts these days) is much ado about nothing. All respect to windandsea and his source, but there's no way that article's right. Rudy allows players to play through mistakes more than most coaches and there is no way he benches players according to mathematical formulas. I'm sure it's an honest mistake, but it's a mistake.
Who can disagree with that Yao develops faster with more minutes, or argue that a rookie needs consistent minutes to develop faster? Yao is not getting consistent minutes and that's fine, if Rudy thinks he doesn't deserve it. The problem is, Rudy isn't even playing Yao on a performance basis. Rudy is set on playing Yao 20 minutes no matter what. That's stubborness. Without Cato and Yao shooting 9-9, grabbing 6 rebounds he's only got 23 minutes. Kenny is comparable in fouls and Tos but he played 27 mins. Come on, Rudy, Yao isn't a paper doll. How much better he has to play to get 30 minutes?
Panda, how many more games will the Rockets have to win before you agree with Rudy's coaching? Yesterday's game was the first time Yao's played with confidence. He was able to do so because he hasn't been pressured by his teammates or coaches. You can look forward to a lot more minutes for him in the future. Rudy's not an idiot. He knows what he's doing. Yao agrees he's not been ready for major minutes. He trusts Rudy and Rudy trusts him. And that's why, after LA, he'll be getting more minutes and more touches.
HP, I understand that it's not Easy (pun) to pigeonhole every opinion into my 4 categories. Sounds like your point belongs more to #3, i.e., what the coach is doing is good for the team AND good for Ming and make sense. It might not fit exactly my description up there, but it fit the general idea. BTW, I voted #2 myself. As I have said in another thread, I am actually not very sure. But I tend to think that, with the exception of perhaps the first 3-4 games, Ming would have helped the team more if he had played longer (24-30 min). The team would be better with Ming at center than with either Cato or Griffin even with all his rookie mistakes and all the adjustment. And I refuse to believe that Rudy doesn't know what he is doing (#4). So #2 seems to be closest to my not very sure view.
You're are completely right, but one thing I've thought the last two games is his awareness of the speed of the NBA has already improved, but it's clear he is often hesitant and unsure defensively. But that gives me a lot of hope for defensive improvement once he's able to stop thinking so much. Nice thread Easy - here goes... 1. It's for the good of the team. Ok, a lot of issues here. This team needs to learn how to win consistently and they've got the talent to do it. Yao in the last two games seems a season removed from where he was his first two games. Yao as a defensive liability was a worse rookie situation than any other I can think of: the quality of basketball and coaching specifically in China is one reason, his fatigue was a huge one early on, but the worst aspect was that everybody is gunning for him and his current deficiencies are more than well-publicized. More than his rebounding, I'm sure Rudy early on got sick of almost every play going right at Yao when he simply wasn't ready for it. Now, given Yao's improvement I think he's gotta get about 25 -30 minutes. If he's getting killed defensively, yank him. But the guy's presence and his shooting in particular should warrant that much time on the court. He can make Steve and Cat's lives so much easier, but it needs to be developed on the court in games. I think that can be done without jeopardizing wins. 2. It's for the good of Ming. Well, how does he feel? Will he tell anybody? I'm not worried about his confidence or his competitiveness, and to tell you the truth I'd love for him to scream at Rudy a couple of times when he gets yanked. Not gonna happen, but I'm still reliving 1984, and it would be nice. Rudy's been honest about this one. He has no idea what's really best for Yao right now and he's just making adjustments on the fly. Even Rudy bashers should acknowledge that Rudy spends a lot of time being sensitive. What a lot of people seem not to remember was that Rudy was a damned aggresive player and he liked to take a lot of shots. I think he relates to Yao in a way that eventually will result in good communication. (Off-topic, only one player on the Rockets roster I think really kind of plays like Rudy did - that would be a thread of interest only to 40+ year olds though). I've thought all along Rudy and CD are the ideal bosses for Yao, and Mr. Mean's influence showed signs of emerging last night. Rudy will err on the side of caution here, but I'm not going to scream about that until Yao gets the real party going. But I'll be even more honest, if the Rockets look to be 9 or 10 games above .500 at midseason, then Cato'd better be playing out of his mind if he's playing 25-30 minutes a game. This is, after all a season and if we can start putting fear throughout the league, then we need to maximize the potential. Otherwise, we take the playoff spot, take Yao's development in stride and see how Steve likes it there. That will still be satisfying. 3. It's for the good of the team and Yao Ming. Well, long-term or short-term in either case is a crapshoot. I am not a Rudy-basher, but yes I'd like to see him bench a player when needed and not worrying about embarassing them, and that includes everybody. So, Yao's often going to have an eye-popping shot percentage, and how many games can an NBA coach endure with a guy hitting 80% of his shots and taking only 7-10 shots? It's not like Yao has to have constant lay-ups and dunks, he showed that in the WBC's, he just hits an unusually high percentage even factoring in layups an dunks. But the concensus here still seems that Yao shouldn't get 15 shots a game, he's a rookie and there are issues with ball-hogging on this team. And to be honest, the last two games were the first that I saw Yao somewhat consistently get open or in position. That's why I think his touches are going to get critical, not just his number of shots. The Lakers last night were just exasperated, and teams are going to get very edgy when Yao hits a few soon. Once his positioning gets consistently better it's going to be huge for our offense. I'm not suggesting a point-center vantage or a Dream kickout ad-infinitum, I'm saying we need to see what kind of defensive attention Yao can get, and how good his passing really is. Touches may ultimately be more important than minutes until his defense is solid, but you can't throw it into him everytime he's on the floor (not that Steve or Cat would ) so minutes are required. I've wanted Yao to play more, of course. Last night, Rudy I think was questionable in his decision not to play Yao in the 3rd quarter and I will assume that he knows more about Yao's condidtioning than I do. It worked. No problem here. But last night raised the bar and you don't want a 7'6 guy shooting a 100% and getting 9 shots under normal circumstances. But nothing about Yao's circumstance is normal. It's still on a game-to game basis, but Yao's minutes need to increase until proven to be a bad move. 4. It benefitted neither Yao or the team. Wind & Sea's article may (if I could read it) be spot on about the teaching Yao needs - clear parameters. I want to play, I need to do this - clear cut. He is a rookie, and probably the most in need of coaching the league has ever seen. So much skill and yet still so improperly trained, he's not comparable to anyone. Would Yao and the Rockets have been better off with him playing 40 mins. a game? I don't see it. Especially given the Sportscenter tripe. If Yao were averaging 10 and 8 now, I don't think that would offset his current liabilities on the court, nor do I think it would it would have long-range benefits. Obviously I voted with the majority. It's been hard to really criticize what the coaching staff has done with Yao, and with his almost exponential improvement in the last 2 games. Now it gets dicey. It's still wait and see, but his opportunites should increase and we'll see where he is even a couple of weeks from now.
