originally posted by clutch: Great points made by clutch. Funny how there has been no pile on aimed at clutch considering his remarks are very critical of Mobley. I know why ...because he's speaking the truth.
I agree with this line of this thinking but would approach it in a slightly different manner. I dont really see what simply trading away Mobley achieves b/c the Rockets probably would never get equal value in return. The route I would choose is try to acquire a third guard that meets these criteria and utilize him to replace Moochie. Players like Marco Jaric or Jiri Welsch could develop into this type of player so the Rockets could look at that mold for future drafts. Personally, the one player I would not mind seeing for the short term to help this team over the next few seasons is Jon Barry. J Barry is 6-5, handles the ball well on the break, plays both guard spots and is a savvy veteran. Also, he shoots 39% for his career from behind the arc and barely turns the ball over. I have no idea what the Pistons would want for him, but I would much rather him being the third guard than Mooch. The only real soft spot on this team I have seen thus far is Moochie. Mooch is not a good complement to Steve or Cuttino and has not really improved in any facets of his game. His jumpshot appears to have actually regressed, and he still dribbles the ball way too much. A player that can play both guard spots within these criteria (being able to shoot, pass, handle on the break and not domiate the ball) would be a perfect third guard complement. Rudy would be able to finish games with whoever is playing well, whether its both Steve or Cuttino or some other combination. Right now, Rudy is forced to go with Steve and Cuttino in the 4th qtr b/c Moochie has been stinking it up.
It seems that everyone is comparing Mobley to Barry for some odd reason. So here it goes. Since this is Cat 5th season in the league, I felt it only right to compare both player stats of their 5th year in the league. Brent Barry 11.1 pts 31.9 mins 39.6 fg% Cat 19.7 pts 42.4 mins 44.0 fg% BTW Barry doesn't avg. just a small amount of minutes like some of you may think. He gets around 37.1, and he would avg. alot more if Mason wasn't knocking on the door right behind him. Pretty soon Desmond will be starting in Barry position in the starting line up. Barry will be on the Pine complaining and wanting out of Seattle. These stats obviously show that Mobley is the dominant player and has a much better upside. I know that stats don't mean every thing and team work has alot to do with it. It's been noted that Barry has had problems with certain team mates and management in the pass; hell he was on four different teams in his first six years in the league. If that don't speak volumes I don't know what do. Mobley on the other hand, gets along with the majority of his team mates if not everyone. He has been on the same team from the start. Coincidence, I think not. Furthermore for the people that would rather have Barry, on this web site, just wait to he start whining and wanting out of Seattle; then we can start the thread about trade Moochie for him since he's riding the pine in Seattle. The Cat avg. 42.4 min.. Which is around 5 more than Brent; this season. Enough said for you none believers.
It doesn't work like that, sorry. You can't assume a player will improve just because of experience. If Mobley by some miracle (that happened with Barry), turns into a 50% shooter, 5 rebound, 5 assist, solid D kind of player, you can bash me all you want.
Cat, I love to hear you argue, but I believe you just shot yourself in the foot with that point...The argument against Mobley here vs. Barry is that Barry involves his teammates, whereas Cuttino pretty much puts it up...and Barry's assists ( leading to approx 4.7 more ppg ) are only part of the equation, the other part being the 8 shots/game that Cat takes that Barry doesn't, thereby 8 shots/game that Barry's teammates get to take that Cat's don't...and as you just pointed out, Barry gets almost as many touches, but chooses to involve his teammates much more often than Cuttino does... Just for the record, I'm really not convinced that Barry is a better player than Mobley at all, and will go one step further...If I had to choose one of them to build a team around, I think Mobley has a much better chance to be a team's best player than Barry. However, if I had to choose one of them to be a complimentary player on a team with as many other potential star players as the Rox have, I would have to say that on paper Barry makes a much better running mate to Francis...
Hey smart guy why don't you compare the numbers both players put up last year. That would make you point more valid, oh wait it wouldn't. . . . Okay can I say this anymore clearly. Stats are meaningless when comparing players that will make the team better. Or which player brings more to the game. Look at guys like Mario Elie, Robert Horry, or Bill Russell. I mean these guys are team players. They understand the team concept of the game. From what I have seen from Mobley he is not a team player rather a my buddies player. Barry is going to bring so many intangibles to the game its not even funny. I will say this again. I don't think Seattle trades us Barry for Cat straight up. We would have to kick in more. I am willing to bet that a quite a few players in this league could score around 20 a game if they were given the freedom Mobley gets in this offense. I understand that we are for the most part Rockets fans but that does not mean we have to be total homers when it comes to our team. I would take Barry over Mobley in a heart beat. That's right now, not in each players fifth year or barrys third year and Mobley's 5th year but the players right now, because last time I checked when people make a trade its for players in the present not one in the present and one in the past. Understand in the game of basketball there are players that make a difference in the game without having to score 20 points a game. Some do it by scoring very little. Look at the effect Dennis Rodman had on games and he didn't want to score. People lets think outside of the stat box for a bit and look at the whole game. What would you rather have a sg that plays good D on the perimeter and the post, understands the game, gets his teammates involved and is a leader. I don't care if in the past he had a few problems with some teams, last i checked people can change and grow up. My only hope is that Mobley will do the same, because we wont get Barry straight up for him. I just think Barry is light years ahead of Mobley in the basketball knowledge department. Sure Cat is a better athlete, but there were a lot better athletes than Larry Bird, it does not mean they were better basketball playersl
When the master speaks, everybody listens. Lately I've been afraid to voice out anti-Rocks (but objective and logical) opinions for fear of being trashed. At least now I know somebody on the higher-up is on my side. Anyway, didn't Barry lead the league in some sort of efficiency rating last year? I don't remember what exactly. Something about if you combine all his stats with his minutes, he's the most efficient in the league. If this is true, then not only does Barry give great intangibles as the pro-Barry people are saying here, but stats-wise, he's also very effective. Oh well, I don't really think the Sonics are gonna let go of him. Not after his play this year and the past two years or so.
I think Brent Barry would fit in better then Mobley...but it's not going to happen. Houston would have to take a risk on trading Mobley who is a good player but not a spectaculor one. Mobley isn't an All-Star caliber player, he's 2nd tier. But I don't see how Houston could upgrade that position. One thing also though...is that players tend to play less selfishly when the team starts to win. On a winning team, all players start to look better because the focus is on winning. I think if the Rockets stay in playoff contention you'll see the offense improve...including Mobley's game. It's a lot easier to sacrafice when you are winning then when you are losing. That being said, I think Houston should stand pat this year and make no trades until this teams plays consistantly together for a while.
Originally posted by IVFL Hey smart guy why don't you compare the numbers both players put up last year. That would make you point more valid, oh wait it wouldn't. . . . Okay can I say this anymore clearly. Stats are meaningless when comparing players that will make the team better. Or which player brings more to the game. Look at guys like Mario Elie, Robert Horry, or Bill Russell. I mean these guys are team players. They understand the team concept of the game. From what I have seen from Mobley he is not a team player rather a my buddies player. Barry is going to bring so many intangibles to the game its not even funny. I will say this again. I don't think Seattle trades us Barry for Cat straight up. We would have to kick in more. I am willing to bet that a quite a few players in this league could score around 20 a game if they were given the freedom Mobley gets in this offense. I understand that we are for the most part Rockets fans but that does not mean we have to be total homers when it comes to our team. I would take Barry over Mobley in a heart beat. That's right now, not in each players fifth year or barrys third year and Mobley's 5th year but the players right now, because last time I checked when people make a trade its for players in the present not one in the present and one in the past. Understand in the game of basketball there are players that make a difference in the game without having to score 20 points a game. Some do it by scoring very little. Look at the effect Dennis Rodman had on games and he didn't want to score. People lets think outside of the stat box for a bit and look at the whole game. What would you rather have a sg that plays good D on the perimeter and the post, understands the game, gets his teammates involved and is a leader. I don't care if in the past he had a few problems with some teams, last i checked people can change and grow up. My only hope is that Mobley will do the same, because we wont get Barry straight up for him. I just think Barry is light years ahead of Mobley in the basketball knowledge department. Sure Cat is a better athlete, but there were a lot better athletes than Larry Bird, it does not mean they were better basketball players. OK I think I'm so smart guy. It shows you didn't do your home work by mentioning Barry having problems in the past. It's been coming out of Seattle since the Preseason that he wants to start and don't want to come off the bench. Every body inside and outside of Seattle know that its inevitable, that he will eventually come off the bench, and start kicking and whining as he always has when face with a problem. You see I am a Rocket fan but I am an NBA fan as well, and Iv'e kept up with Barry ( and just about every other NBA player as well ) as much as possible. Saying that, all Barry has to offer is his stats because he is a cancer to his team, and every team he' has played on; by insisting that he should start. Mobley have always stated that everyone likes to start, but he would come off the bench if it was to make his team better. Just try if you may Think out side the entire box. Now try to under stand to do a little research before saying things you know nothing of.
Okay here is a little posting 101 for the "smart guy" When I use a quote and then talk about that quote, in this case your brilliant use of stats. That's the subject I am focusing on. Not some comment you made 2 paragraphs later. That could be why I didn't talk about Barry and his "problem" BUT, I will say this, Since I live 4 hours away from Seattle and since the local media, covers the Sonics. Since I see a weekly show on the Sonics and usually several games each year. I also get to see interviews with the players, including Brent Berry. I will say you are wrong. Period. The main players that were causing a fuss this off season and season are, Gary Payton, Lewis and his contract, Baker who is now gone, and you might hear a few things from the owner now and again. You heard nothing from Brent about not starting, and if you have ever seen this guy play for the Sonics you would see that he and GP are the leaders of that team. But I guess I should just take your word for it, I mean you follow every NBA player, heck I cant compete with that. Also from you expert use of stats I see you have me beat there too. Show me an article were Barry comes out and makes these demands that you claim he has and I will back off, until then. . . . Things to note in this post, I stayed on the topic of your quote, and didnt bring up anything you said in a later post, or the same post later. That is all thank you
Yeah, "amen". When Mobley adjusts his game and the Rockets actually become a well-balanced team I'll have to say I told you so.
Barry's FG% w/ Payton 49% Barry's FG% w/o Payton 43% Barry's 3P% w/ Payton 43% Barry's 3P% w/o Payton 37% Barry's PPG w/ Payton 12.0 Barry's PPG w/o Payton 9.0 ----------------------------------- It would appear that Barry is a direct beneficiary of playing with someone like Patyon, who is a great distributor and gets his teamates involved. Payton makes Barry look like a better player than he actually is.
