[Atheists] Do you ever "pray"?

you should ask them. no, i'm serious. everyone has different reasons. everyone has their own story.

i always laugh at the suggestion that faith is ultimately about nothing more than our fear of death...i see that written here quite a bit. i suppose that's true for some, but i promise you that has zilch to do with it for me.

your tone is appreciated...thanks.

 

I'm asking you because I don't know anyone like that. I found out recently that my dad is an atheist, despite his parents being very religious. Perhaps I could ask my brother, but I get the impression he just got baptized because his wife was religious and wanted a religious ceremony. I think he's still a non-believer though, but I am not sure.

That's why I asked you. It sounds like you have some specific stories and I'd like to hear some, namely from the non-believers that were converted later in their life (let's say, after age 18).

I realize that faith isn't always a fear of death; perhaps you're responding to someone else. One argument I often hear as to why someone is religious is the "what if you're wrong?" argument, which I also assume isn't true for you and many others; it's really a stance out of fear, more than anything.

However, I can't reconcile what reason someone would have to believe in a higher power other than something after death (Heaven, etc.). Perhaps you can describe why you have faith for me, without using death (including what happens afterwards, etc.) as a reason. I've heard things such as "it makes me a good person" which I find ridiculous. Do people really need a religion to tell them not to do bad things? That speaks more on the person than it does the religion. Anyway, I'm sure you'll have a different reasoning.

I'm really trying to understand here. I'm really trying to find that infallible, non-hypocritical reason people have faith that I could perhaps accept (but still not agree with), but I've had zero success.

[Edit] Examples of frequent points of contention in my brain:

- Some religious folks say they accept evolution as fact and not creationism, but how do they reconcile that with the book of Genesis? If they say the book of Genesis is false, but they still think the Bible is the word of God, why do they not think the rest of it is false?

- How come some sects of Christianity, for instance, are OK with homosexuality? I drive by a gay-friendly Lutheran Church every day (in Montrose, naturally). The Bible clearly states it's an abomination (Old Testament). Most people say they follow the New Testament; how does the word of God change? Who decided "OK, the Old Testament isn't really the word of God"? When will they decide that about the New Testament?

 

Not quite. See my post from page 2 of this thread.

 

Haven't been around in awhile. About a year ago I started doing some research into the things I believed. After awhile I came to the realization that the idea of God made no logical sense to me at all. That it was pure fantasy pushed on me by their parents because it was pushed on them by theirs and so on.

I am now an atheist, and no I do not pray.

 

Mark- 30 years after
Luke- 26 years after

According to your info. Just saying. Those would be just what they claim to be. First hand written accounts by Mark, Luke, Matt and John.

 

A real benefit in believing which would seem to substantiate the object of your belief.

Stop being coy.... I bet you can roller skate backwards!

 

Wholeheartedly agree.

I don't mean to imply anything simple-minded but maybe simple-hearted, if you will.

For myself, the Bible is more of a love letter than a history book-- that's not the general perception about Christians or Christianity. It may not even be the general outlook of Christians or Christianity.

Maybe that is a Christian PR problem but it hasn't entirely kept us from doing good in this world and maybe it is the cause of the unintended harm that Christians (i.e. Lambs of God or Westboro Baptist Church) and Christianity (The Crusades) do in this world. While the writing may be inspired, it has also been translated and edited by groups of men (no women that I know of either). Is it blasphemous to say that the Bible needs to be taken with a grain of salt?

Frankly, what book could move and inspire you more than Shel Silverstein's "The Giving Tree?!"

The only thing I feel compelled to reject is Evil in whatever form it may come.

 

Just because there are benefits to belief in something does not qualify or substantiate the object of the belief itself. That is absurd.

"I believe there is a diamond the size of my refridgerator buried in my back yard, and that belief makes me feel good, ergo, the diamond is there!"

 

You probably saw this post coming from a mile away, just as I saw yours coming, but I'm sure you're well aware this would be the exception to the rule.

Well of course. Who could see/find God in the science that describes the origins of the universe and the evolution of life, etc? Those things are so unintelligent in their mechanics and chaotic in their implementation, it destroys the very notion of an omnipotent creator. Granted, I guess you could still say there is a creator, but he'd have to give up the whole "infallible" mantle to explain all of the problems and inconsistencies we find in our universe.

Adults who "come to faith from a place of non-belief" are rare in themselves anyway, and formerly being one of these people, I can tell you that the majority of them do so out of social pressure and moral dilemma. They're not looking for an explanation for the universe or life, they're looking for some kind of sense of belonging, comfort, acceptance, communion, and commiseration.

 

any statistics to back this up?

 

I pray to the football Gods every morning to thank them for making the Lions take Charles Rogers instead.

 

Seems pretty hard to quantify. Only thing I can really offer you statistics-wise is the obvious correlation between how religious nations/countries/states/societies are and how poorly advanced their STEM is. I readily admit it's only correlation, but when you look at the fact that scriptures tell us 1) how the universe began 2) where people came from and 3) that questioning these things is bad/you need not look for answers beyond scripture... then it's not all that hard to reason out that more often than not someone who is deeply rooted in a philosophy of answers is not going to be the most curious cat on the planet.

*edit: Another stat to suggest a relationship is the exceptionally low number of religious/theistic scientists in the world. The numbers are stark, descending towards 0 as you climb the ladder up the academies to the elites.

 

In kindegarten I went to a Methodist church and I believed in God.
Shortly after that my parents divorced in spite of me praying with all my might as a young boy for them not to. (seems like I prayed every day for the fighting to stop and then my Dad just left)
I decided there was no God.
I studied evolution in jr. high with a passion, then got a little in to witchcraft, then decided that the only power was human power and was firmly the atheist
When I was 25 in an effort to save my marriage, I started to go to church, my wife being raised strict Roman Catholic. Going to church was an attempt to keep my wife, had nothing to do with believing there was a god.

Church didn't help, only bummed me out, a waste of time at the time.

At 26, I was just driving in my car and had a spiritual experience with Jesus Christ that I cannot explain (yes in a car), it changed my heart and life so much so that I would say the person I was before died, and there was a new creation of spiritual life in me- I was changed from the inside out- something very dead deep inside me came alive.

I could no more explain that experience to you any more than a man born blind could explain that someone touched his cheek at the age of 26 and he could see for the first time.

What I can tell you is that as a result of that experience Jesus filled my heart and life with other worldly love that just blows my mind.

It is for the love of Jesus in my heart, I believe. Both His love for me that I can actually experience and the love He gives me for others.

I do not try to explain this as much as I try to share it.

It is a reality to me that is so unshakeable that I often wonder what to do, it isn't like you can convince someone outwardly of spiritual realities that are in your head and heart.

If you are looking for reasons why I became a Christian I have no answer, If you are asking why I believe in Jesus, love is the only answer I can give.

I don't expect anyone else who believes in Jesus to have that experience, maybe I uniquely needed it, I don't know, I am around alot of Christians and I never ask why they are Christians, I brag on Jesus all the time and I share my experience if anyone cares to listen.

The result of all this for me has been a wonderful 32 yrs of experiencing God's love in greater and greater measures, even in suffering I have found a beautiful love, nothing is as real to me as the love of Jesus.

I only wish it was something I could give more of to others, and so I find great purpose and joy in trying to serve this love starting with my wonderful wife and my children and as many people in this world that I can come in contact with.

 

rhester, you paint a nice picture. It would be a nice feeling/experience to get, I'm sure.

But it's impossible for me to swallow as truth. You can't explain it yourself (by admission), so how the heck am I supposed to ever accept it? In fairness, you're not really asking me to, but I still find your explanation to be hardly satisfying to my question. Everything you said from your "experience" in your car and beyond is esoteric at best to me.

I'm looking for something tangible; something reasonable. Despite your explanation of your own experience, it is not what I am looking for. Perhaps this is your point, though? Belief in God/Jesus is not tangible and can never really be proven, it's just something random people randomly experience during their life?

Still, I can't accept that. It's too vague and, not to intentionally belittle you, but... too easy to fake and lie about. I appreciate you sharing nonetheless; it has given me some insight (as you can tell by my attempt to understand your POV).

 

So rhester - you have no proof of god that you can show to anybody, but you have a single experience that transformed your life and made you believe?

It seems like the God you love is a tad unfair. I also don't have proof for god, plus I haven't had a life-changing experience (nor have many dead atheists). So you get to be transformed and increase your odds at entering heaven because God almightily revealed himself to you and not others?

Thanks for sharing your story. I don't know any of the details but I'd be interested in hearing them - as I'm sure there are other potential explanations. But I don't need to get into that. If your story is somehow true then it just seems a bit unfair, that's all.

 

I understand, I wasn't sharing that so you would understand or accept it.
Just giving you the why I believe.

I don't think anyone could have changed my mind back when I was an atheist. Not my expllaining anything to me.

I was driving the car home from work and I thought about Jesus dying on the cross, I had a mental picture of it and a thought entered my mind (from I don't know where) that He loved me- it seemed really personal at the time, I next had a strange thought as if someone was speaking to me that Jesus was talking to me and the thought was Him saying that the life I was leading was wrong and He forgave me for all I was doing.

At that point I remember feeling something I never experienced and that was - love, I actually while driving my car said in a whispered voice, I am sorry please forgive me, and at that point unexpectedly I felt like someone pulled a 4"X4" wooden steak out of my heart and peace and love like I cannot explain flooded inside of me, yes it sounds dramatic, yes is sounds weird and goofy and probably religious but I can't change that part, that is what happened to me.

I actually started to cry a little, first time that had happend in 15 yrs, and then I just can't explain the rest, I experienced like a flood waves of love, forgiveness and peace.

I have seen lots of people become Christians or change or whatever you call it, but on just a few occasions have I witnessed the same experience I did that day back in April of 1979.

I am not saying it is anything normal or necessary, but in hindsight I have come to believe it was probably necessary for me.

I do not feel it was fair, or just or deserving and I don't have all the answers to these kind of things.

I can say that I believe that love is big enough for every person in the world to have some of it.

 

Correct it is not fair, just or deserving, but it was humbling,
You bring up something interesting...

After I became a believer in Jesus many many people I knew before said they were affected by what happened to me, even some of them believing in Jesus.

They knew me- a felon, who brutally hurt other people, who stole, who blew up his high school, who smuggled drugs, stole drugs from pharmacies, was a drug dealer working with organized crime, who was in jail most every month, who debated, mocked and humiliated religious people, rarely paid for anything if it could be stolen, and basically could not be trusted, even by his 'boys'- then they meet this other person over night and they are all freaked by it.

I had many tell me it was proof there was a God.

 

Wanted to add one part to my personal story-
My grandmother was the most loving person I knew and I remember her now to be just like Jesus, she was a very sweet Christian woman.

When I was growing up she said she would pray every day I would become a Christian.

When I was alienated from her later do to my lifestyle when I did see her she told me she would never stop praying for me to be a Christian (I just ignored her at that time)

So.... to get back to the prayer topic... I guess her prayer was answered.

 

I'm glad you turned your life around, rhester. And I don't intend to offend in any way. But I'm curious as to whether Jesus has ever revealed himself in a similar way to somebody who was never pre-exposed to the Christian stories as a child. I'm not trying to discredit your experience, but it just seems bizarre to me that he would use these kinds of "proofs" for his existence when they 1) cannot be verified and 2) can easily be disputed through psychology (unless Jesus has, indeed, appeared in this way to somebody who had never heard of him).

 

Atheists by definition don't pray. Are you confused?