I am frustrated by the inability to move towards peace, but I refuse to become callous towards the plight of these people. The individual Palestinian and Israeli families are just trying to go about their daily activities and raise their families just like the rest of us. Their agony is incomprehensible to me. I don't understand why people assume this is propaganda. Because the Father said that the Mother had been reading bedtime stories? Because the Mother tried to shield the boys? Some one clue me in, and tell me how in the hell it makes a damn bit of difference anyway since the mother and boys are dead. Are you also discounting reports about the little 2 year-old Palestinian boy who was killed by the Isreali military? Was he not really playing ball?
I considered addressing this in my post, but thought that it didn't fit the flow at the time... There seems to be a drastic difference between Israeli occupation of Palestine and our occupation of this country. There is no resistance to our current occupation, if only because we were more brutal in our settling of the continent (if not us, then our infectious diseases) than the Israelis have ever been. That's not a normative, but a descriptive. We aren't talking about white settlement of the US, b/c there's no modern day conflict. Native Americans aren't trying to kill me everyday, nor am I trying, daily, to expand out onto the res (in a region where I'm drastically outnumbered and always will be). Purchasing? Is this true? From what I've pieced together, the Brits just put the Israelis on Palestinian soil. It reminds me of my Thanksgiving joke... "nice country, why don't you get yourself one". This may be the only relevant point. Unfortunately, it doesn't mean anything on the ground. The quandry of male lions: you're designed to do one thing, fight other males... but it's so ******* dangerous, why would you ever risk it. The Palestinians know that Israel is there to stay, the suicide bombers are exacting a vengeance a 1000 years old and a vengeance just a few weeks old. Israelis do nothing to advance their argument that they're the just state when they shoot Palestinian children, or openly discuss transporting the Palestinians out of Israel. Which, I guess, is why we should stop paying attention to these things. Palestinians have not sunk to a new low. Israeli men and Palestinian men have just played the game, over and over again. those poor kids
not to be mistaken as anti-Isreal, but for the argument's sake Looks to me, "are you planning on leaveing FOR the Europe, where your ancesters lives?" is a better question.
Don't worry michecon, but discussung this topic does not automatically make you 'anti-Israel' around here. If I understand your point, it is essentially what I was asking, somewhat tongue-in-cheek. If we were to analyze who lives where in this world, it is unlikely that they did not displace some earlier peoples.
There is an intense media propaganda war taking place aimed at winning support for both sides' campaign. If you can't see this, then you are either hopelessly naive or you just refuse to admit it because you are so blinded by your love for Israel. No one is questioning the tragic events that led to the death of the innocent. What they are questioning are the embellished details of the report.
From my understanding, Yes, for the most part Jewish settlers legitimately (meaning legally) purchased a lot of the land between 1918 and 1945. In many instances it was thru secretive consortiums where several investors came together and then had another party such as a British representative make the actual purchase. For a poor Palestinian family, taking the money for their land was a no-brainer. However, it was not necessarily realized that their neighbor was selling their land as well and that all this would be the seeds for the Jewish state. I have also read that many Palestinian families were simply kicked out of their homes and told they no longer live there, but I do not know what the ratio would be of Palestinians who had their land legally taken away vs. forcibly. There are more Palestinian refugees living outside of Israel/Palestine (Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, Iraq)than there are Palestinians in it, so one can surmise that a good number were likely uprooted. Personally, I think it's a fair deal if a Jewish settler legitimately purchased the land - business is business.
Originally posted by Achebe I considered addressing this in my post, but thought that it didn't fit the flow at the time... There seems to be a drastic difference between Israeli occupation of Palestine and our occupation of this country. There is no resistance to our current occupation, if only because we were more brutal in our settling of the continent (if not us, then our infectious diseases) than the Israelis have ever been. That's not a normative, but a descriptive. We aren't talking about white settlement of the US, b/c there's no modern day conflict. Native Americans aren't trying to kill me everyday, nor am I trying, daily, to expand out onto the res (in a region where I'm drastically outnumbered and always will be). Some native Americans may differ with you on the 'no modern day conflict' assessment. Regardless, there are still descendants that should have the same rights to the lands that they vacated that the Palestinians have. Just because 'we' were more brutal and overwhelmed them with sheer numbers does not change the nature of their rights. Purchasing? Is this true? From what I've pieced together, the Brits just put the Israelis on Palestinian soil. It reminds me of my Thanksgiving joke... "nice country, why don't you get yourself one". Maybe, but that's not my tale on it. The zionist movement began in Europe and the Brits 'allowed' Jewish immigration to Palestine. This may be the only relevant point. Unfortunately, it doesn't mean anything on the ground. The quandry of male lions: you're designed to do one thing, fight other males... but it's so ******* dangerous, why would you ever risk it. The Palestinians know that Israel is there to stay, the suicide bombers are exacting a vengeance a 1000 years old and a vengeance just a few weeks old. Israelis do nothing to advance their argument that they're the just state when they shoot Palestinian children, or openly discuss transporting the Palestinians out of Israel. When children are killed on either side, it certainly hurts their cause. If you mean transporting people from the West Bank and Gaza strip, that is a bad idea. If the argument to transport Palestinians out of Israel is based on 'biblical rights', that is also wrong. I am not for collective punishment, but if the argument is because the Palestinian areas are generating terrorists, that is potentially a valid reason. If 70% of Palestinians support suicide bombing of civilians, it may be a threat that has no other short-term solution. I would prefer to see an equitable peace, economic and social intermingling. Which, I guess, is why we should stop paying attention to these things. Palestinians have not sunk to a new low. Israeli men and Palestinian men have just played the game, over and over again. I don't think the problem is that we pay too much attention, but too little. Peace was close with Rabin. All the parties need is some strong leadership and intermediaries. Is it that inconceivable? those poor kids No doubt.
Originally posted by Trader_Jorge There is an intense media propaganda war taking place aimed at winning support for both sides' campaign. If you can't see this, then you are either hopelessly naive ... Do you have any information that the rest of us are unaware of? Or does your preconceptions of Jewish control of the media cause you to discount the horrible details of a terrorist rampaging through a home at night? And trust me, I'm not naive, child. ...or you just refuse to admit it because you are so blinded by your love for Israel. Why don't you tell me what I have said that led you to propose this as a possibility for my 'blindness'. No one is questioning the tragic events that led to the death of the innocent. What they are questioning are the embellished details of the report. And if they really didn't embellish, you simply wouldn't believe it under any circumstances? Why do I believe it likely to be true? The reports also state that the terrorist looked for a home with the lights on, meaning that it was late. What do parents do before putting their children to bed? Read to them. Yet why even mention your supposition? The mother and children are dead, shot point-blank by someone filled with hatred. Is the event somehow less tragic becuase you think that someone embellished? FWIW TJ, If you don't want to alienate everyone here, you should be a bit more careful. Your approach is often condescending and patronizing.
I understand that this story may very well be fact. I can sympathize for the millions of shelterless and hungry people around the world more then a bunch Ireal and Palestinian citizens. Why? To a certain point, these citizens are just pieces in the big picture of an ugly war. These citizens may be innocent in the sense that they don't want war, but ask any Palestinian if they like Israeli people, or vice versa. The mutual hate and private agendas on these peoples minds easily makes them less then innocent. Israel are not sad that they just got attacked again, they get a chance to show the world how brutal Palestinians are and hopefully gain sympathy around the world, and with enough luck, gain to worlds supporst to annihilated Palestine. Yet, how many villages did Israel pillage already, how many innocent did Ireal slaughter. Of course, two wrongs don't make a right, but why should we even care when to them, losing citizens is just like losing a soldiers, maybe even better.
For the last time, I think the crimes committed are tragic and horrible. No one is disputing this. Quit making it into a debate over the actual crimes themself. The debate is over how the crimes are *represented* in the media. Thanks for answering my question, Cohen. The answer appears to be hopelessly naive.
Originally posted by Trader_Jorge ...Thanks for answering my question, Cohen. The answer appears to be hopelessly naive. ROFL! You are such an arrogant ass! OMG!
Originally posted by SaFe I... losing citizens is just like losing a soldiers, maybe even better. That's disgusting.
Cohen, you're a smart guy... but you're confusing the issue. I'm not arguing culpability but rather the extent of actual damage. I won't take a position on whether the Palestianians or Israelis are "worse people." I will take a position - which is awfully hard to refute - that the average Palestinian has been hurt much, much worse in the current conflict than the average Israeli. More Palestinians have been killed... and of course, every single Palestinian suffers enormous economic and human rights losses.
This is a sick and twisted view. There are many Israelis who support a Palestinian state. They just don't happen to be in power at the moment. There are opposition groups that have been very vocal in their objections to what the Israeli government has been doing. You really need to check your facts before posting something this radical.
Originally posted by haven Cohen, you're a smart guy... but you're confusing the issue. I'm not arguing culpability but rather the extent of actual damage. I won't take a position on whether the Palestianians or Israelis are "worse people." I will take a position - which is awfully hard to refute - that the average Palestinian has been hurt much, much worse in the current conflict than the average Israeli. More Palestinians have been killed... and of course, every single Palestinian suffers enormous economic and human rights losses. Qualified that way, I agree with the statement. Since it was mentioned after much criticism of Israel's policies, I'm sure you could see why someone, even a smart person , could interpret it's intent otherwise.
