That wasn't the point. The point was to move the discussion about prayer to this thread since LL's thread was being derailed by whether people thought it was a good thing or not to pray for him.
Yes I've read the flood story. It's a story about having faith, and following God, and God's grace. Every example you mentioned in your biblical citations is a story to illustrate the good of following God's will. To think that every storm, earthquake, and volcano, is God sending a message is missing the entire point of those stories in the bible. Certainly there are Christians who believe as you have stated, but that isn't where I'm at as a Christian, and it isn't what I believe, and it seems to me like it's missing the overall point of the whole thing. I've never said that storms, lava, weather, earthquakes, or any of that was caused by sin. The problem I have is that you take what some Christians say and apply it to all Christians.
I'm not even a Christian and I will say that "God works in mysterious ways." As I said earlier a supreme being is going to be so far beyond our understanding as a liver cell is to me as a whole. Let me give you an example. Say my shoulder is sore so I take some Ibuprofen. While that relieves my pain it causes some stress on my liver. The liver cell might wonder, "Oh God why have you smited us?" The liver cell can't see the whole body and only knows its place in the liver.
There is no lesson to be taught. God does not send tsunami. God does not kill people. God is not teaching us anything about being kind or thoughtful. God is not intervening in these things, He is not teaching anything. We should be kind, loving and good neighbors to everyone to end the suffering. Being kind and thoughtful is the right thing to do. God wants us to do the right thing. He doesn't create suffering to teach lessons. God puts up with suffering so that He can make Himself and His love known to people. And if Christians will do that then more people will know God's love. Christians should give everything they have to love others, lay down their lives, just like Jesus commanded. Christians shouldn't be opposed to Muslims, Christians should love Muslims. Same goes for every other group or ethnicity or person. God is not going to stop the weather or stop man from causing suffering in the ways that are implied in this thread. Here is how the so called 'logic' is being stated- God can stop all suffering or He can pick or choose and stop suffering at His discretion and He doesn't- so He either cannot do it because He is powerless or He won't because He is evil. That's baloney. Let me repeat this again, God can only stop ALL suffering if He stops mankinds free choices, He is not ready to do that yet. God is aware there is suffering. Whether it comes from the weather, disease or from people's bad choices. God also wants every person to stop being a cause of it and to help each other when we do experience tragedy and suffering. God also frames His actions in this life on the basis of eternal life. In other words God may reserve the correction of wrongs, suffering, and injustice to the afterlife. This was evident in the story Jesus told of a very poor beggar named Lazerus who begged at a rich man's table. After the 2 died the rich man was in torment begging for a drop of water for his tongue and the poor beggar was in paradise. In the story Jesus said the rich man had good things in his life and the poor beggar had nothing and now the beggar was receiving benefits to compensate for the suffering he endured while living on earth. God does see some good come forth from suffering and He works to promote both the ease of suffering and any good that may come from it. This is not why He allows it, but it is one reason He will work through it. Suffering in this life often brings people to see the needs of others in ways that the wealthy,the comfortable, the selfish and the proud cannot see. Suffering sometimes reveals the closest thing on earth to the pure love of God, for example when people do step up and help those who suffer at great sacrifice to themselves. I am not speaking of the damage that comes to suffering children- no good comes from that, this God hates, but I speak to the human spirit that rises out of the ashes of suffering and in dignity creates a better and more loving world. This is the story of those who suffer themselves to ease the suffering of others. If you do not think God will avenge all suffering you are wrong. He will make every wrong, every injustice and every pain right in the afterlife, so to speak He will dry every tear... hear is the verse: "He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”
I never said that God caused ALL natural disasters, I simply refuted your comment that said, based on the Bible, you don't believe he pulls levers and pushes buttons.
So rhester, if God doesn't cause all natural disasters and if sin doesn't cause them either - why did God create the potential for natural disasters when he so perfectly created our planet? It would have taken extra work by God to fill the earth with molten lava. Why bother? Is this planet really evidence for "intelligent design"? Because I'm only 26 and I could come up with a thousand better ideas.
I do not know what is causing the natural disasters but we are learning to predict them better, like the hurricane that hit Galveston in 1900- it took alot of lives and by surprise. Today forecasting is much improved. God does not like alot of what happens to people. I believe the truth is God's will is rarely done on earth. In fact Paul said the whole creation is groaning, or in pain over the way things are. To specifically answer your question I will guess (I am not that smart to know exactly) - In the original creation there was perfection, and if there was a great flood as described in Genesis ( not saying there was- just supposing) it could have changed everything that controls the inner earth and the atmosphere and the oceans which greatly affect the weather. Even the continents could have changed.- Or an Ice Age could have changed things. I wasn't there so if the earth was created perfect, it's obvious it changed. Those are only guesses. I freely admit I do not know enough about the causes of natural disasters to pinpoint their origin. But I also strongly confess I understand the loving nature of God as He has thoroughly revealed it to me and would never believe He caused them to inflict suffering. Maybe in punishing wickedness I could understand such judgments but not upon the innocent. Sorry, I do not know the answers, but I know Jesus and He is not the person being described when speaking of suffering children and natural disasters.
That is correct. My argument is that the stories in the bible where those disasters happened, wasn't about a disaster. It had a bigger message and point. It can compare to something like the story of Robin Hood. While there are armed robberies in the story, it isn't really about that. The overall message is about taking a stand against tyranny and unjust practices. The bible stories you mentioned are no different. They show things which are bad and use them to illustrate a bigger point. If the only thing anyone gets out of them is that there is a God/Person controlling levers to make disasters happen is missing the point. As a Christian, and basing my beliefs on what the bible says, I think it's far more important to look at the overall message and focus first on living in a loving and charitable way. There are all sorts of ways people look at the bible, and it's changed over time. Some people have a need to believe that God is a "super being" who is able to control everything. The bible says that God is love. Love is not a super being who controls everything. It can have a great deal of control. It can also be super. If you choose to look at the bible as it being about someone who can control natural disasters and then uses them at times to punish people because of sin, then I don't blame you for being against it. I would be too. If I thought that's what it was about, I wouldn't be a Christian. Thankfully, I don't believe that's what it's about at all.
This just goes around in circles. In the end, the answer is still: "I don't know but I choose to believe." The conversation never went anywhere, and the starving children will continue to starve.
Look at this whole conversation. It's kind of absurd. some folks in the thread ask how anyone can believe in a God that would allow awful natural disasters and starving children. rhester says he doesn't believe God is responsible for the starving children or natural disasters, and wants people to be happy and loved. other posters then try and tell rhester that because he believes in God he needs to believe that God is responsible for some awful natural disasters and starving children and wonder why he would believe in a God that would do those things. The people arguing with rhester won't accept the fact that he doesn't believe God didn't cause all of those tragedies. If rhester doesn't believe that God is responsible then the folks have nothing to argue with rhester about. Basically, it seems like some of the anti-religion crowd has their idea of what religion is and is against that. The problem is they don't seem to accept the word of religious people who have a different idea of what religion is. So they try and insert their idea of religion into other people's beliefs so they can argue against it.
I'm not a supporter of the idea of Intelligent Design and have frequently argued about it but it is almost a marvel about how the world works to make it habitable. If we take the idea of God not as an active participant keeping the world going but as a cosmic computer programmer who wrote the program and has let it run according to a set of rules. Consider that the natural disasters that afflict us are necessary effects of the global system that makes this planet livable. Earthquakes and tsunamis show that our planet is tectonically active that indicates that the our core and mantle are still active and maintaining the magnetic field that protects us from solar radiation and helps to cycle material throughout the system. Without volcanoes we wouldn't have an atmosphere and storms are a necessary part of stirring up the atmosphere. So all of the things that we consider disasters might just be part of a larger and necessary plan. Also while we consider things like tsunamis disasters from a human perspective what if God is interested in more than just humans? Consider that the tsunami hit coastal development very hard. Coastal development is hard on the environment in a variety ways. Perhaps the tsunami was just God's way of trying to protect coastal creatures and tidal wetlands or just a reminder to humans not to encroach so much on those environments.
Well said. It seems like a lot of people are putting the responsibility on Rhester to provide all the answers. While Rhester is a man of faith and a pastor I don't think its fair at all for him to explain everything to everyone's satisfaction. While I don't share the same faith as Rhester its made him a better person and one who is spreading a message of love. For me that is more than enough to expect from him.
I don't direct my questions specifically at rhester - in fact, I'd like very much to hear from others who might be able to answer my questions. I'm very thankful that rhester is responding. And I'm not wanting to be belligerent. I'm wanting to understand something that doesn't make sense to me, but seems to make sense to others.
A truly almighty God could have created better 'rules' for the planet, which didn't require natural disasters to maintain healthy, habitable living. A god could have just 'made it work'.
No doubt. I should add that I appreciate the responses by rhester and rocketsjudoka... they don't 'satisfy' my questions. But they are honest responses and that's great.
That's great, but when people answer they do believe in God but don't believe in God causing natural disasters, and starvation of children, nobody seems to accept that answer. They keep trying to say no, that if you do believe the bible then you have to believe that God controls natural disasters. It really is crazy. They won't accept people's answers, unless they are the answers they were expecting or wanting to argue against. The groups with the most literal fundamental interpretation of the bible seems to be fundamentalist Christians, and atheists. To me that's odd. As a Christian I have the same beef with other Christians who believe that God controls weather disasters and things of that nature. I have the exact same problems as atheists do with that type of Christianity. But atheists seem to have a difficulty understanding that one particular way of looking at the bible, is not the way all Christians look at the bible.
Maybe such a being could but as I've said several times I am not going to claim to understand the mind of God. Speaking personally for myself I don't believe in a Judeo-Christian version of God and if you want an honest answer the answer is I really don't know why God does things the way he/she/it does things.
I've noticed this pattern before that critics of a particular belief system will use the most extreme version of that belief system to argue against it. I frequently see this when criticizing Islam where critics will rely upon the most radical view to argue against the religion in general.
I just want to say, I think all the questions are ok, and they are very difficult to grapple with- especially suffering and pain - and even more so with precious children. There is a thread somewhere about why you believe. Well, Jesus did something for me that nothing else has done or compares, He put His love in me. I love children very much, and I love people very much, very very much and I love Jesus. That's all, remember that old song What the world needs now is love, sweet love I may be wrong but I am honestly wrong, I believe that God loves everyone, and hates to see the innocent suffer, especially children. If I saw my child dying of starvation I would do whatever it took to save him and I believe God loves every single child in the world regardless of nation or station infinitely more. Thanks to everyone who has posted so respectfully, I wish you could all either come visit our church or we could all sit together at a Rocket game, I would be equally satisfied to get to know the wonderful people I find on Clutchfans.
A few quick questions... Do you believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of god? (I'm looking for a simple yes or no.) If the Bible is meant to be the word of god, how can you justify not following it exactly? If you have issues with parts of a book that is meant to be the word of god, then how can you justify lending credibility to any of it? What makes you believe that your brand of Christianity is any more correct or worthwhile than any of the other 38,000 others? Why do you discount the claims of other religions while accepting your own? Do you accept that Christianity very closely mirrors or borrows story lines of earlier religions? Do you believe in the virgin birth? Do you believe the the ark story actually happened?
