What is with this cultural imperialism talk? That's a hallmark of American foreign policy, and when it comes to international war crimes, the ICC and the Rome Statute definitely enforce the idea that there are some universal norms that supersede cultural relativism. Like, I dunno massacring thousands of civilians, and letting those responsible go free---is kinda a no-no in international law. If it was just the shrine-worshipping I might understand, but that's just the tip of the iceberg. Unit 731 scientists granted immunity, Japanese war criminals going unpunished and having prominent careers, whitewashing history books, and an entire political party that denies the whole shabang ever happened? Imagine if Himmler was never persecuted, and went on to helm a significant German company. Or if an entire political party in Germany had, as a central plank of their policy, that the Holocaust never happened and that Germany should never apologize. Or if all history books in Germany were rewritten to portray the Holocaust as a series of unfortunate war-time incidents. The shrine-worshiping is just the tip of the iceberg of the blatant insensitivity Japan has shown about this topic.
I hate to repeat myself, but here goes. I certainly appreciate all the issues you have with Japanese culture. But do you think it might be more effective to deal with those things directly, as opposed to turning the visit to a religious shrine into a metaphorical line in the sand. I understand that from an ease of use perspective it is much cleaner to focus everything every issue into a single annual visit, but it strikes me as fundamentally counterproductive to choose to bring the whole of Shintoism into your war on culture as collateral damage. That seems a pretty unnecessary expansion. You bring in a whole new group of people to oppose you who otherwise wouldn't. Look at the way the US military has pained themselves so much to brand their current activities the "War on Terror" not the "War on Islam" or "War on Islamic Fundamentalism" or whatever phraseology the yahoos who actually want to fight a war to subjugate the entire Islamic world use. I mean, this is assuming you want you are actually interested in effecting change, as opposed to just being angry.
We're attributing letting war criminals go unpunished and history revision to "japanese culture" now? Here I was thinking "crime" and "history" were fairly universal concepts. Is this how all apologists think or you're just exceptionally delusional? Probably the latter considering your main point of argument is "lol it's not like you can change anything!!!111"
So you don't think the issues that Japan has with respect to WWII are cultural in nature? What are they then? How do you define them? From my perspective, WWII Japanese War History Revisionism seems to pretty much one-to-one cohabitate the same space as Japanese culture. It is just coincidence, then, that it is pretty much only Japanese people that are denying what the Japanese did in WWII? Is it just a statistical fluke, or something? If so, what factors in your opinion lead one towards denying the events of that war as they are commonly understood?
No one's calling for a war on Shintoism, just like how no one calls for a war on Christianity when they tell Germans not to worship Nazi graves. It would be nice to see Japan not visit war shrines commemorating war criminals, in that it would be one of the only concrete steps Japan can offer towards reconciliation with the rest of Asia. Surely, it's not too much when compared to hmm---banning the denial of the Rape of Nanking, or hunting down Japanese war criminals and killing them in their sleep, or banning even condoning Japanese history in WW2 in any way---all steps that are more or less tacitly condoned by the entire world when it comes to the Holocaust. It's really quite simple too---Japan's shrine-visiting is first of all incredibly easy to resolve culturally---just don't visit the shrine that contains memorials to war criminals, like the Japanese PM chose to do. Voila, cultural impasse defused. Now, hopefully Japan works on things like formal written apologies, and working on uncensoring the truth about Nanking and etc. So really, the argument is moot on so many points. A) This can be (and was) resolved to fit with Japan's culture. B) It is only a very small part of the issue, but one that can be (or was) fixed rather easily---as for war criminals who have already lived out their lives in peace, what can you do? Or perish the thought of reparations to surviving Nanking victims, some of which toil without air conditioning and etc. and C) It is in no way an attack on practitioners of Shintoism or Buddhism, of which, I am sure, edicts about remorse for massacring millions of people, and respect for that terrible injustice, should trump burial rites for some of the same people who committed those crimes.
I think there are misconception that many Asian countries resent Japan. I don't know where it comes from. But it was repeated many times. Except it is not true. The following is a poll on how the world view on a particular country. USA was not looked upon very well by the world. China is viewed positively by most of 3rd world countries. But one country was viewed very very positively. Japan is adored by almost everybody, except two. South Korea and China dislike Japan. But the intensity is different. A little more South Korean dislike Japan. But China is the only country in the survey has an intense dislike for Japan. http://www.globescan.com/news_archives/bbc06-3/index.html By the way, I think Japanese really shouldn't worship war criminals.
Huh? Metaphorical line in the sand? Just a visit to a religious shrine? Do Japanese also pay tribute to dead rapists and murderers? If they like to worship the dead, why don't they set up shrine to worship those? When religious ceremonies pay tributes to war criminals, it is not just a cultural. If there is a tradition in doing that, they'd better change it b/c there is no place for that kind of b/s in the international world they live in today.
In general Asians don't have a problem with Japanese people or the country in general. Consider the popularity of Japanese actors in Hong Kong and the PRC. At the same time all Asians have been welcoming of Japanese money. The negative sentiment is pretty much just Japan's wartime history, their failure to fully live up to it and the persistence among a small part of Japanese population to revise it. While this sentiment is the strongest in the Koreas and China since those countries spent the longest under Japanese occupation and got the brunt of it but its not limited there and have Indonesians and Filipinos express the same thing.
I think there is a thread about that somewhere and if I recall Bill Clinton issued sort of an apology about slavery. I haven't thought about the issue but in general I don't think it would hurt. I think the context in how it was delivered would matter. For instance would our first black president, who isn't the descendents of slaves (or as far as is known slave owners) be seen as self-serving to deliver the apology? Its an interesting question and I will see if I can find the previous thread.
L Ok. But you get to be the one to make the Catholic Church disavow half their saints. You can also get the Muslims to disavow their prophet. Once you get that done, I'll back your position 100%. I mean, if you think you can browbeat people into changing their faiths, I'm all for it. Maybe you can even get everybody in the world to abandon all religions. I'm just saying from practical experience, it doesn't seem to really work. But who knows? Maybe you will be the one to succeede when pretty much every other attempt in the history of the world not involving genocide has failed. I personally would choose a more proven tact but to each his own. Best of luck to you.
You don't understand why people are so mad. There is a difference between private action and government action participating religious events. The families of those died in the WWII for Japan can moan and grieve however they want in their religious ways. Neither is visiting shrine like other Japanese cultures such as two fat people in diapers pushing each other. Whether intended or not, the implication of such visiting by Japanese political figures including the highest governing officials in the country is flat insult to those who sufferred Japan's brutalities in the War, to say the least.
I don't think you are interpreting the poll result correctly. That poll does measure how people in other countries feel about Japan (and other individual countries). Some Japanese actors might be popular in China, but average Chinese still have very strong negative opinion regards Japan. That intense negative feeling is unique only in China (and Korea in a lesser degree). World War 2 happened 70 years ago. The behavior of Japan had been nothing but exemplary in the years since world war 2. I don't like it that some of them worship in temples where WW2 war criminals are in it. But that is just a very small part of Japan. Result matters. If every countries behave exactly like how Japan behaved in the last 70 years, this world will be a much better place.
No one cares that a small portion of Japan still worships at the shrine. The issue is that prime ministers kept going there. It looks awful when the head of state goes to a shrine dedicated to some really horrible people. That was the point of the original article. (that a PM decided not to go) It just looks bad when the head of state starts worshiping it.
When an avowed athiest gets elected President of the USA, I'll think about it again. As it is, I think you don't have a very good grasp of the nature of.democratic politics, and the role that religion plays.
I don't like it either that their prime minister visits a shire with criminals in it. But my original point is to correct a common mis-perception in here. The misconception that all past Japanese victim countries have negative feelings toward Japan. Only by having Japanese correct their way, would Asian looks positively toward Japan. That is clearly not true. As a matter of fact, the opposite is true. Japanese is the number 1 country (in the survey, out of 33 countries) the world viewed most positively. Some example of the views of past Japan victim countries toward Japan: Indonesia: 85% feels positive toward Japan (vs. 8% dislike Japan) Philippine: 79% feels positive toward Japan (vs. 13% dislike) South Korea: 44% feels positive toward Japan (vs. 54% dislike) China: 16% feels positive toward Japan (vs. 71% dislike) Clearly, only China and Korea dislike Japan. Only China has an intense dislike toward Japan. Whether their prime ministers visit the shrine or not, vast majority of the world (including most of their past victim countries) still like the modern day Japan. Again, the poll: http://www.globescan.com/news_archives/bbc06-3/index.html
The shrine is not dedicated to really horrible people. Of the more than 2 MILLION kami enshrined there, about a thousand are war criminals, so 0.1% of the shrine is war criminals, the other 99.9% of the shrine is fine. Someone earlier mentioned apologies. Japan has issued more than one formal apology for their actions during WWII. Those are conveniently dismissed or ignored. The point is that some people are going to hate Japan for the rest of their lives, no matter what happens, because of things that occurred 70 years ago. Yakasuni is just an excuse that gets trotted out.
I skimmed over a lot of this thread, so I'm sure this has been addressed and I am way oversimplifying.... BUT... seems like the solution is to not have the shrine be dedicated to the war criminals, or have a different shrine, which seems to be the course they are slowly taking. the 0.1% clearly changes the message of the shrine. that seems obvious. You can't include a bunch of really really bad people in a shrine, even if they are ridiculously outnumbered, and expect it to be ok... the message you are sending is that to you, those bad guys aren't really bad. Either you think they were war criminals or you didn't. if you think they are, don't include them in a shrine. if you think they aren't, man up and say so. Perhaps some do refuse to let go of the past, ignoring apologies, etc. Alternatively, I posit this is more about paying tribute, daily and annually to a shrine that celebrates really really really bad people, even if those same people have previously apologized for those people, and even if that shrine also celebrates the lives and deaths of some decent, common everyday folk. It's still wrong to celebrate the war criminals.
so if we stick Hitler in a shrine and just add 2 million other people then suddenly its okay for him to be in a shrine to be worshipped? okkkk and no japan has not formally apologized or acknowledge their war crimes during WWII like Germany has.
