Hate to rain on your parade, but most playoff teams have a 7-8 man rotation which they use over the last month of the season and in the playoffs. The other players fill in only when there's foul-trouble So it's not 'useless', even in 'this day and age'
Dr., forget about the rain, where do you get this thing from about playoff teams? You are mistaken. If you find a team that does that then show me the quality of players that they are sitting when they do that. Now that Keon is on the Kings, do you think that he is going to replace someone in their rotation from last year or lengthen it? Try lengthening it. Exactly. So with the net addition of talent it seems obvious to me that we are likely to lengthen our rotation. I am not calling for a long rotation for a long rotation sake. Among other reasons, I am calling for it because we have the talent. Case in point we have four players from our squad last year, who we did not want, that are playing in other team's rotation. Other than Maddox, these are not scrubs on our bench. Even Collier is as good as the starting center for at least 10 teams in the league, last year. This ideal rotation is not one for the playoffs. Playoff!? When we are in the playoff we will get into that discussion, HP and Co. We are trying to get to the playoffs and we are talking about a rotation for the next thirty games, let say. HP, we are somehow not connecting. First you thought we were talking about a 7-8 man rotation and we were not. Then you are trying to find a gigantic difference between somebody playing, rotationally or situationally. Are you serious? They go hand in hand. The reason does not matter, the key is that they do not stay on the bench. The average of 6 minutes could mean sometime they play 10 and sometimes they do not play. Take the Suns last game against the Hawks. That was a close game and they had 10 players play 6 mins or more. Langhi played six minutes and scored six points. Now is that rotational or situational? All I know it is value to the Suns and DL. I cannot see a single, or collective, set of benefits to this team (rockets) that are greater than the benefits of keeping 12 players, who are capable of playing anywhere in the league, ready. Look at how rusty both Rice and KT were just from missing a few games. Those are the things a deep team can minimize. For a team who has suffered so much from injuries we still remain sickeningly passive about the need to mitigate that risk. We are similarly passive about the glaring effects of back to back games which have littered this season's schedule.
This has to be based on the premise that Rice will remain healthy all year or T Mo and Hawkins are ready to start in the NBA..Thats a stretch. Thats why the Rockets need KT.
DearRock, You are reinventing the word "Rotation." A Rotation players plays every game when healthy. They don't get DNPs. Any player who gets a DNP is not Rotational. You can fill out a roster that gives players 6-10 mpg, but some games they won't really get any minutes....that's because they are not in the "regular rotation." They are not guaranteed any minutes by the coach and are supposed to just be ready at any time. Rotation guys know when they are coming in and know when they are coming out...on a day to day basis. Your use of the word "Rotation" seems to mean all players who show up in the boxscore. That's not how coaches who I played for use it.
btw: here's an 8-man rotation that could be in when Griffin and Yao are ready for 38 mpg in a year or two. Griffin Rice* Yao Mobes Steve MoT Kenny Hawkins *(sub Nachbar when Rice retires) ---------------------- come playoff time, Moochie and Cato get the most minimal of minutes, end of 1st half time stuff. 1 or 2 minutes here and there. overall, sporadic minutes. The team's main two lineups are the starting lineup and this MoT Kenny Griffin Mobes Francis In this definition, their are 2 main linueps that get practice time in practice...and is used every game. The two teams run two different game plans. In playoffs, Mobes and Francis increase to 44-45 mpg and use Hawkins to give them breathers. Kenny gives Griffin breathers when Yao is in. Hawkins also gets SF minutes.
I think this rotation, ordered sequentially at each position with respect to most mpg to least mpg, might do well. TMo can fill in for pf when there are injuries or foul trouble, while Nachbar fills in for sf. I really think Griffin and TMo have the stuff to be starters, although a little less sure about TMo. Later in the season, if Maddox gets to show us what he's made of.. I think he could replace Moochie as Francis's back up with Mooch picking up pt only if foul trouble or injury occurs and Francis picking up some pt at sg. The starting five give us good offense due to Mobley Francis and Griff, as well as a great defensive frountcourt. MoT and Rice come off the bench as offensive sparks with their jumpers, while Hawkins fills in defensively at sg or sf. Cato/Ming/Griff Griff/MoT TMo/Hawkins/Rice Mobley/Hawkins/Francis Francis/Moochie
OK but when does Steve get a break? Are you playing Hawk at 2 and sliding Cat to the 1 and then Hawk at 2 when Cat is out? What about right now? Cato is clearly needed at the 5 until Yao Ming is ready. Do you think Rudy has any plans of shelving Moochie at all? If we go to a 8 man rotation do we shelve Yao Ming until he is ready?
in a playoff series, we are talking about 3-4 minutes of rest, imo. Mobley can throw entry passes to Yao during those minutes like he did for Hakeem...no biggie. Hawkins can definitely guard a PG and SG, plus SF.
Could we kill the playoff scenario please. HP, what is the value, today, of the rotation you proposed. We are four games in and we need to find out a lot about our players and lineups. Instead of us pontificating on what would happen in the playoff, it seems more valuable at this stage to work scenarios which get us to look at everybody except maybe Collier and Maddox. How could you propose a rotation for the future that includes Hawkins and does not include Tmo? Despite his impressive performance to date, I am astonished that he could be placed in such a restricted group. In addition, why would Cato and Moochie be reduced to those roles. The objective, at the very minimum, should be to see how we can allocate minutes to develop most if not all the players and get to the playoff. Folks like me already consider the playoffs a given, barring injuries, and are trying to see what we can do to be in the top 4. What do we do now to stay with the big boys? We are tied for 5th place in the West and this is as good a time for us to stay with these guys. To do that, I am not in favor of burning out our best guys while nailing more than adequately skilled people to the bench.
Naturally, every team in the playoffs cuts down to between 7 and 9 players during the playoffs or during a playoff push. But don't joke around and tell me we're going to have an 8 man roation anytime before the All Star break (barring trades, injuries). If T-Mo has really worked on his shot, and can shoot the way he shot in the rpeaseason, then KT's just a liability to the team, as Rice can play 20-25 minutes a game all season without getting injured. If T-Mo comes back and shoots the way he did in the preseason, then I would be dissapointed to still see KT in a Rockets uni. He's a chemistry problem waiting to happen.
DearRock, The point I'm trying to make is most teams try to have a second unit that has a character. They devote practice time to that second unit. That second unit generally includes 2 to 3 starters. So, the starters and the additional guys in the second unit are the rotation. That is 7-8 people. Everyone else is filler. Others play, but they are not what coaches call really part of the Rotation. You told me to "get off" this 7-8 rotation talk. Well, you explain to me what Rudy meant by a rotation of 7-8 guys. You can't unless you change the meaning of the word "rotation." Rotations are not 11-12 deep.
Yo DR, why don't you actually address the comments hp made to you, instead of ragging on an 8 man rotation he'd like to see a year or 2 from now? Despite your assumption, it is not a given that the Rocks will make the playoffs, so put your best lineup on the floor, and not set in stone time for lesser players. Practice is a hell of a lot better for developing talent than getting 6-10 minutes of game action anyway. Oh, and the rocks can't hang with the big boys yet. They've managed to squeak out wins against a Juwan-less Denver and a Vince-less and AD-less(for the 2nd half anyway) Toronto team, while getting schooled by the freaking Sonics and Pacers. They're still struggling learning to play as a team, let alone a "top four" team.
I think that the whole point of discussion here is to determine what makes a rotation player. I think (along with others) that a rotation player will play if they are fit. They will never receive a DNP CD (as per heypee's reasoning). I don't think that having an 8 man rotation means that only 8 play (although perhaps heading to the playoffs this becomes reality) - but other players will see spot minutes (ie Nachbar's current situation) based on a need (foul trouble, 3-point shot etc). With that in mind, I don't see why it's so crazy that we should expect to see a 7-8 man rotation.
GATER, "Small ball" is fine sometimes. But do you know what I see when I see "Small ball" on the court??? No defense! Read on.... I see, "Hello shorty! I'll will now proceed to shoot in your face as long as you are on the court. You are 6'3" or shorter, and I'm a 6'8" or taller SF/SG. Thank you, Rockets, for playing *small ball* because I need to do some shooting drills in your face!" If our "small ball" team is not scoring, then we surly aren't going to stop anyone. Chalk it up as a loss.
Exactly. Good post here. I personally wish there was some way that we could dump Moochie on someone, but it is probably never happening. I just get tired of the dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, etc. If we want Francis and Mobley to be playing over 40 minutes a game that tells me a couple of things: 1) We think that they are freaking ironmen and we got to be praying that they won't wear down as the season goes along, i.e. get injured. 2) Most importantly, our bench guys suck or if not, Rudy has no confidence in them. I sometimes wonder how a Rick Adelman would handle our rotation. My ideal rotation would be for Francis and Mobley to play no more than 40 minutes a game, preferably 35 to 38. Limit Moochie to no more than 12 minutes a game and cut down on Hawkins' time. I have resigned myself to seeing Boki getting garbage minutes, but I can't help but wonder what might have been if he hadn't gotten a hernia. Anyway, here is how I would try to distribute the minutes: PG - Francis 36, Norris 12 SG - Mobley 36, Hawkins 12 SF - Thomas 28, Rice 20 PF - Taylor 25, Griffin 23 C - Cato 25, Ming 23 Now of course, Griffin could see some time at the 3 or 5 and Thomas could see some time at 4 and Hawkins possibly at the 3 but at no way do we see Mobley having time at the 3! No small ball, please! But this is sorta black and white scenario when there really are lots of overlap and grey areas in guys playing more than one position.
This team will never have a 7-8 rotation. It is too skilled, too deep and too versatile. Anyone that tells me the following suggestion from Manny will be further reduced by 2 or 3 players are crazy. It is further crazy that Tmo would be left out. PG - Francis 36, Norris 12 SG - Mobley 36, Hawkins 12 SF - Thomas 28, Rice 20 PF - Taylor 25, Griffin 23 C - Cato 25, Ming 23 I will be back after ten and twenty games.
