First and foremost - I do not propose that I know more about basketball than RT and the Rockets management. Secondly - I have a readily admitted and extreme dislike of "small ball" (SF, Cat & Moochie on the court at the same time). I disliked it even when Moochie was being more productive. Next - IMO, 40+ mpg is too much time on the floor for Francis and Mobley. For whatever reasons, no none at CC seems to equate 40+ mpg to "burnout" (mental as well as physical) or injuries. I think these are legitimate concerns. Last - In a recent 610 interview, Rudy was quoted as wanting a "7-8 man rotation". IMVHO ("V" being "very", "H" being "humble"), this translates to small ball, big minutes for Cat & Steve and limited minutes for developing younger players. With that framework, I propose the following "target 10 man" rotation. "Target" because of injuries but mostly upon matchups favoring certain player combinations (example - Griffin is OK at center vs a Camby or MoT vs a Brian Grant but I don't like either against a Shaq or even Ostertag). There is obviously a lot of room to tweak this. Some nights you need "D", some nights you need "O", sometimes there's a slight ankle sprain and some nights there's is just a need (as in Hawk defending Payton for example). Here's my "target" (sorry I don't know you to create a table in HTML): POS - SF - CM - MN - Hawk - Rice - KT - EG - MoT - Cato - Yao G......28.....xx....20......xx.......xx.....xx...xx.....xx.......xx.....xx............ G......09.....30....xx......09.......xx.....xx...xx.....xx.......xx.....xx........... F......xx.....07.....xx......11.......15.....15...xx....xx.......xx.....xx........... F......xx.....xx.....xx.......xx........xx.....07...19....22......xx.....xx............ C .....xx.....xx.....xx.......xx........xx.....xx....03...03......26.....16........... TOT..37.....37.....20......20.......15....22....22...25......26......16........... Embedded in this may not be so obvious. * Yao's minutes +/- from EG/MoT at C. * Griffins minutes +/- with Mo's productivity (rebs and blocks as well as points). IMO, Mo should get minutes with Yao since he has a great mid-range J and Yao is a good passer. * KT's minutes +/- at PF based upon EG's consistency and at SF based upon Rice's health and need for O over D (Hawk). * Moochie's minutes +/- on productivity. * Having Hawkins as a point SF (to me) is preferable to small ball. * If your last name is Nachbar, Morris, Maddox, Mickeal or Collier...your only hope is injury or garbage time!
That's reasonable. But I'd up SF and CM to 40 mpg in order to lower Moochie to 14. Moochie simply is not hitting his open midrange with consistency, and that is inexcusable to me. Cat is one of our best 3 point shooters, and he can get a lot of breathers just standing in the corner for multiple possessions. He can play 40 mpg for that reason alone. I'd also oblviously like to see more minutes for Eddie. Also, I don't believe a 7-8 mpg team translates to small ball in terms of 3-guards. Kenny Thomas subbed for Cato at the 6:00 mark of the 3rd Q against Seattle. Yao did not enter until the 4th. That's 6 minutes of 3 forwards right there. Although arguably centerless, playing EG, MoT and KT together is not what I call small ball.
Good job, Gater, but I take exception to your comment on playing time and CCers. I am in various posts calling for a 10-12 man rotation with no player going over 30 mins with the exception of Wink and Mobes who should not go over 35 mins. My reasoning all along are similar those you mentioned. Regarding your breakdown: Too much minutes for Wink and Mobes. Shave at least 2 minutes of each. Let Mobes play all 35 minutes at the 2 and Francis play 5 at the 2 and 30 at the point with Moochie playing the remaining 18 at the point. Too many minutes for Hawk, especially when you compare it to Rice, KT and EG. Hawk should play 8 mins at the 2 with very little involvement at the 3. Why? Too much resources at the 3 and Hawk cannot be commanding that kind of minutes anyway. The 3 spot should be KT (24) Rice (18) and Boki (6) Not enough minutes for EG and KT especially when you compare it to Cato and MoT. EG (20), MoT (22) and Tmo(6) for the PF spot and Cato (22) Ming (20) and EG (6) for the center spot. That is a 12 man rotation which is justified based on three things: 1. the experience level of the players included - if you able to put Hawk in then I cannot see a reason to leave out Boki and Tmo; 2. the number of back to back games this season. We have already seen what that has done to some teams this season. If the rotation is tight we will get killed.; 3. in addition to reducing the chances of injuries we also would be better able to better withstand them because more players are kept involved.
I'd rather not see CM play any forward time at all. The more minutes he does get at forward the more small ball is being played. That could free up some minutes for someone else. Hawk has been playing well and has earned the minutes. When everyone get healthy minutes at both the 3 and 4 will become very competitive. But like you stated depending on what we need or if someone is hot that night minutes will differ.
HP, I cannot go with any player averaging 40 mins per. Not only is that asking for trouble in terms of injuries, it is also opening the opportunity for player slacking off on defense which we do not want. My concept is that we have to reduce minutes but increase output per minute. The team is very energetic on defense which we should have continue. To get it for 48 minutes you need more players and, by extension, less minutes per player. In the case of the off guard spot, Hawk playing for 8 mins, was to be better than the eight additional minutes that either Mobes or Wink will be playing. In addition those additional minutes will also limit how potent they are in what I hope is a more optimal allocation of 35 minutes each.
DearRock, GATER can correct me if I'm wrong, but this thread is not about what you like or dislike. This is about Rudy's comments on the radio yesterday saying he's looking for a 7-8 man rotation. The idea is to be Rudy and pick your 7-8 man rotation. Not to say everyone else gets DNPs, but just garbage time. You 12-man rotation is off-topic, and it is harmful to growth, imo. Where you say you can't give anyone 40 minutes, I say show me one...just one...NBA team that plays a 12-man rotation. are you serious??
I know Hawkins has shot the ball well so far, but if he becomes a liability on offense (wasnt the knock on him that hes not a good shooter?), does his defense make up for that and guarantee him approximately 20 mins a game? Im guessing the status quo is in effect and Steve and Mobes will get close to 40 mins each which would leave Moochie at 16 a game and Hawkins with limited backcourt mins. Assuming Rice and KT recover 100% from their injuries, and the fact that KT is ok on defense and gives you more of a threat offensively, will Hawkins see less mins as the season progresses?
My Depth Chart/Rotation PG: Francis(34) / Norris(14) SG: Mobley(37) / Hawkins(7) / Francis (4) SF: Rice (19) / Thomas(19) / Hawkins(10) PF: Griffin(23) / Taylor(25) C: Cato(24) / Ming(20) / Griffin(4)
HP, what a useless exercise it would be for me or anyone to come up with a 7-8 rotation in this day and age. What is the use of carrying 15 players for a rotation of 7-8? I did not get that impression from Gater's post since he has a rotation of 10; and I did not hear, or do not believe, that Rudy would be looking to put such a rotation together. As to finding a team that has a twelve man rotation? That may be difficult but it is just as difficult to find a team that has a Tmo or Boki and are not playing them because a rotation can be only so long. It would seem to me that your primary reason for limiting it is because it is harmful to growth. Whose growth exactly? I cannot believe NBA players, as accomplished as Mobes and Wink are, currently ranked in the top 20 overall, would need to play more than 37 minutes to grow. Regarding the growth of Boki and Tmo, their growth is clearly more harmed if they sit on the bench instead of playing 6 mnutes a game. Finally, it is worth saying again, that it should not be only the number of minutes that determines a player's physical contribution. Rather the energy expended each minutes should also be a consideration. Sure we can have those guys play 40 minutes but take quite a few defensive possessions off. I believe Rudy or anyone can make Mobley be as productive in 37 minutes as they can make him be in 40 minutes. I also believe that the overall well being of the team is better served if 12 guys feet are wet as opposed to 7-8. So, yes, I am serious.
Some of the teams we are supposed to be competing with and the length of their current rotation ( players averaging 6 mins or more): Kings -11 Mavs - 11 Spurs - 11 Nets - 11 Blazers - 10 Wolves - 11 Sonics - 11 Lakers - 11 While these are early numbers, it does not seem so ridiculous to have a 10-12 man rotation. It is safe to say the league is more like Scott rather than Riley old. Low and behold Miami now has 11, too!
mmmm love to see a team competing for a playoff spot or the playoffs themselves using an 11 man rotation, we are in the first couple of weeks of the season. Come crunch time most teams use 8-9 players.
I kinda like Gaters idea ..I have always thougt of a rotation as 8 guys that get 15 or more minutes a game..the other payers pick up minutes situationally. Also I always thought RudyT normally used 8 man. As long as these guys are available I believe Gaters guess is going to be pretty close to actual minutes..
This is the problem i have with the disbursement of those minutes. With Thomas and Taylor playing limited minutes, you kill any possible trade value they might have. With Nachbar and yao getting such limited minutes, they never get confortable or acclimated to the new league they're playing in. With Francis and Mobley playing so much early, you run the risk of burn-out or nagging injuries that occur. Ideally, if a team wants to shorten the bench, it is done by having players who play multiple positions. Example: Kenny Thomas getting time at the 3 and 4,Griffin getting time at the 4 and 5. The problem is when you try to please everyone, you wind up pleasing no one. If KT is playing less than 30mins per in a contract yr, you risk him being a very unhappy disgruntled player on the team. If Taylor is playing less than 30 mins, he will start complaining and bringing up why he isn't playing and losing his spot because of an injury. If Griffin doesn't play 30 mins, then you are doing your team a disservice. Rudy's greatest strength is also one of his biggest weakness. he will say all the right things and for the most part means them, but the logjam the Rockets have right now will really test his resolve.
It would help tremendously to lose KT. Rudy's 7-8 man roatation is good for the playoffs or a playoff push or something. But right now, we should go with something like this: Cato/Ming/Griff MoT/Griff/T-Mo Rice/T-Mo/Hawkins Mobley/Hawkins Francis/Moochie BTW, the Nets use a very large rotation normally. It's not a coincidence that they run like hell, the same way we want to. Obviously, we're incredibly deep, and I'd like to see playing time for Boki, but it seems he's going to take time to adjust, and we can afford to let him take his time. filling in for injured players, and garbage minutes will do for now. Playoffs: Cato/Ming MoT/Griff Rice/Hawkins Mobley/Hawkins Francis/Moochie We're deep enough to NEVER have to play with an 8- man roation while not having a dropoff in quality.
Although we need to keep the time down for SF and CM, so that they last into the playoffs, there isnt a quality backup Point Guard to play the balance of SF time. Moochie is only good for 15mins at the most,considering the way he has started off this season. Next season we will have Maddux to back up SF. Dont forget Nachbar needs to get playing time, he could be our big time shooter of the future!!
When Taylor returns, my ideal rotation would be: C- Kelvin Cato (25 minutes) PF- Eddie Griffin (35 minutes) SF- Juaquin Hawkins (20 minutes) SG- Cuttino Mobley (40 minutes) PG- Steve Francis (45 minutes) C- Yao Ming (23 minutes) PF- Maurice Taylor (25 minutes) SF- Glen Rice (20minutes) PG- Moochie Norris (15 minutes) I'm not sure if that works out mathematically, and if it was me Moochie would definitely be sitting and I'd just let Stevie and Cat handle the ball-handling duties. The Rockets have enough offensive weapons to let Cat run the point in a pinch, plus he has some experience- he was a PG his rookie year.
DearRock, sorry man, but there is no such thing as a 11 or 12 man rotation. You are reinventing the word. 6 minutes is not rotational....it is situational and garbage minutes. Anyone who gets a DNP while 100% healthy is not a Rotation Player.... case closed.
I'd have to agree with your rotation for the most part Gator. I would also like to see a little increase in SF and Mobes time and a decrease in Mooch's time. and damn, Griff, MoT, and KT with only ~22 mins each? I would like to see all of their minutes increase somehow. Mebbe cut into Hawkins and Rice time. I myself would like to see an 8-9 man rotation. Anyone think Ming will be getting even less time when Mo comes back? I think his mpg might start to get very sporadic, esp in close games.
A seven or eight man rotation just seems like such a very hard thing to accomplish with this team. Who would you leave out? Starters: Steve Francis Cuttino Mobley Kenny Thomas Eddie Griffin Kelvin Cato Subs: Moochie Norris MoTaylor Yao Ming Juaquin Hawkins Thats a nine man rotation right there with out including Glenn Rice or Terence Morris. Boki, Mickeal and Maddox are basically only going to see garbage minutes if any is available. Does Rudy T sit Yao Ming as well? How about Hawkins when Rice is healthy and TMo comes back?
