Boy Scouts: Declare Your Belief in a Higher Power or Else

Here's my personal thought. A country club, like the Boy Scouts, is a private orginization. If a country club didn't allow black members, wouldn't you guys agree that steps should be taken to change that. We wouldn't just say "Oh well, if they don't want black people there, why should black people want to be there." Who's gonna just start another country club? Same thing applies, who's gonna start another Boy Scouts? They are a private club and they have their rights, but because they train people to be respectable members of our society and future leaders, how can we just stand by and let them tell a generation of kids that it's wrong to be an atheist and that they should be excluded? They have a responsibility.

 

Absolutely the Boy Scouts are within their rights as a private entity. It is such a weird disappointment that this is how they choose to assert them though. When I was growing up the Boy Scouts were like baseball. And when I was growing up I can imagine both atheists and gays being excluded from playing baseball at, say, the YMCA (also a private entity), but I can't really imagine that today. Because being excluded from playing baseball, like being excluded from the Boy Scouts, just feels like being excluded from being a kid. Because you're different. In America. It's a shame. Even if they are within their rights. Never mind that someone may be totally dedicated to all those important ethics that the Boy Scouts may instill in young people, never mind that someone may be good enough, may work hard enough, to attain Eagle Scout. It's not easy, you know. It's not something you take on to get on CNN or because you want to cause trouble. It's too much work. For a kid, remember. It's something you do because you believe in it. And you honor it. And you work your ass off. And also maybe you happen to be gay. Or also maybe you happen to not believe in God. And if you happen to not believe in "God," maybe you also happen not to believe in a "higher power," although you obviously believe in something, whether you call it "higher" or not, because you worked hard enough to make Eagle Scout. And you obviously believe in something, because you don't take the easy road. You don't just say, well, yeah, I believe in spirits, or souls, or some kind of something. You say, I worked hard and I believed in the Boy Scouts and I believed in them enough to bust my ass. And they say sorry, you're not welcome in our private organization. You are dishonorably discharged. For being different. Never mind the work, never mind the honor. Never mind the fact that you grew up an American kid who thought you were doing the right thing, the American thing, the hard-working, clean-living, upstanding citizen kind of thing, joining the Boy Scouts, believing in it, making Eagle, you're different. You're out. We're private. We can do that. And they are within their rights. And people on a BBS call you a crybaby for complaining. And that's the Boy Scouts today and that's the America we live in now. It was cooler when I was a kid.

 

Point taken.

That would be an illegal discrimination. If the country club got ANYTHING delivered to them from out of state...they could be slammed under the Commerce Clause to the US Constitution. I covered this in an earlier post, stating that I would not support illegal discrimination.

They define their responsibility based upon their world view. They formed a stance and have stuck by it. Would you prefer they teach a generation of kids to become hypocrites in the name of political expediency?

 

Batman--

Very good post. I agree with much of what you say in it. I don't agree with their stance on this issue. I don't think that these issues are what makes a Scout a Scout. But as a private organization I will defend to the best of my ability their right to take this stance. The kid did not become an Eagle in order to get publicity and pressure the Scouts...but that is exactly what he has done.

 

Things like this wind up on Fox more often than not. I was surprised that I hadn't seen this on "On the Record."

BTW...anytime on the backup...I'll always point out when somebody is being portrayed in an incorrect manner.

 

I will defend their rights too Refman, but it's a shame. And these aren't the Boy Scouts I grew up with. That's a shame too. Those Boy Scouts don't exist anymore. The kid's not the biggest villian here. The Scouts have a much bigger problem than bad publicity.

 

It may seem strange and silly to us...but it isn't for us to decide. At some point, maybe the Scouts will lose relevance and a new group will start up. I want to make sure that what does not get lost here is that the kid took an oath. When that oath was no longer true it was incumbent upon the kid to step down.

Like I said...presiding over the ouster in my law fraternity was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do. This was a guy I liked, a colleague...and a brother. But he didn't live up to his oath. I couldn't commit malfeasance of my duties.

Oaths are important to me...I realize that to many (not you, but many) I am a throwback in that regard...but that's the way I feel.

 

Why would you assume that anyone here thinks oaths are unimportant? Has anyone in this thread given you that idea? As for that kid, I think he did honor his oath. Ultimately, after honoring his oath enough to make Eagle Scout, he honored it by refusing to be dishonest. And he asked if he might still have a place in the Scouts. And they said no, which is within their rights. And which I'll join you in defending. But what a shame that they place the agreement to say a Word over everything else which made them worthwhile and everything else which made them important.

Maybe another group will come along. And maybe they will stand for those things the Scouts used to say they stood for, including such American ideals as inclusion for everyone who worked hard, stayed pure, and was honest. But it will be a long time coming and it will be a shame if they supplant the Boy Scouts. I mean, after all, they're the Boy Scouts.

The Boy Scouts are an American instution. They enjoy that reputation and, if they wish to continue to enjoy it, they have a responsibility to it. This can be about the letter of the law, and apparently it will be. But they will lose so much. Or we all will. Either way.

And I'll defend their right to do it but I will call it a shame.

Oaths are important not for the sake of them, but because of what they mean and because of what they stand for. We are not robots. And if the private organization to which that kid took an oath and for which that kid worked ceases to mean the thing that he swore an oath to, it is that private organization which has let him down and not the other way around.

 

The Boy Scouts are in fact a British institution, and do not exclude atheists, gays, females, or anyone else to the best of my knowledge.

You're thinking of the BSA.

 

He should shut up and stop whining. Its stupid, but the organization is whithin its rights.

 

Sorry Ref, I'm still learning the the intricasies of our laws, but isn't there some law that would qualify this incident under discrimination based on religion? I know this has been thrown around in here, but like Doctor Robert said, the higher power is supposed to be a doctrine other than just pure science, i.e. religion.

 

In other words, the Boy Scouts is a private institution with bigoted and exlusionary practices yet embodies what is supposedly "American ideals".

In the end, their fights are going to destroy what they were initially trying to preserve.

I hope some other organization comes along and gives them a good kick in the teeth.

 

The Boy Scouts may be within their rights, but it has not been proven that the kid is 'whining'. IMO, he's more likely 'fighting'. Would those of you calling him a whiner be more impressed if he just gave up?

It's a fair fight, anyway. The BSA made a decision, he's taking it public so they can get the PR that they deserve...I get it...'The BSA, the Private Club for Religious Homophobes'.

 

Any ex-Boy Scouts here? How much does religion play a part in the overall activities of the Scouts? If the originaztion and it's creators hold religious values in such high regard, then who am I to argue with it? Just because the main focus of the Boy Scouts is not religion, doesn't mean it's any less important to the people who comprise it. What if this was an organization that defined itself as a purely religious organization? Would anyone be complaining then?

<b>Scout Oath</b>
<i>On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
Mentally awake, and morally straight</i>

 

Amen to that.

If the scout doesn't agree with the fundamental constructs of the organization, then he should exit. This entire media stink is just an outlet for the anti-religion crowd to protest. yawn.

 

Refman said it...it's a private group...end of story.

Beyond that...the most disappointing thing I ever read EVER was from a law professor at UH while I was there. It was an editorial printed in the Houston Chronicle during the Clinton impeachment. The point of the article was to say that oaths mean absolutely nothing...that they should not be accorded any special significance...they're just another formalistic/ritualistic thing we do. This from a lawyer (though he probably never practiced law a day in his life)...can't tell you how discouraged I was after I read that article. Just wanted to rant on that...I realize it's only tangentially related to this thread (if even that much!)

carry on.

 

I would like to join the Atheist Alliance, the Ku Klux Klan, the Miss America Pageant, the Young men and womens' Hebrew association, NOW, and any other private group that I do not meet the requirements and/or do not accept their rules.

 

Damn those evil Boy Scout Webelo Bastards!!

 

The only bigotry I see is in some of the comments directed at the Boy Scouts in this thread.

 

I'm not very fluent in the law, but if the Boy Scouts of America received any government assistance (don't know if they do), wouldn't this be viewed as religious discrimination?

Is it a non-profit organization?

TheFreak, what the hell?